1
1
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF GEORGIA
2
ATLANTA DIVISION
3 ROBERT CHRISTIAN WOLF,
Plaintiff,
4
Civil Action File
vs.
5
No. 00-CIV-1187(JEC)
JOHN BENNETT RAMSEY and
6 PATRICIA PAUGH RAMSEY,
Defendants.
7 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
8
VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
9
STEVEN THOMAS
10
September 21, 2001
11
9:07 a.m.
12
1100 Fourteenth Street
Denver, Colorado
13
14 Kelly A.
Mackereth, CSR, RPR, CRR, and Notary Public
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
2
1
APPEARANCES
2 For the Plaintiff:
3 DARNAY HOFFMAN, ESQ.
4 (By telephone)
5 Law Office of Darnay
Hoffman
6 210
West 7th Street, Suite 209
7 New
York, NY 10023
8
(212) 712-2766
9 .
10 For the Defendants:
11 JAMES C. RAWLS, ESQ.
12 Powell, Goldstein,
Frazer & Murphy, L.L.P.
13 191
Peachtree Street, N.E.
14
Sixteenth Floor
15
Atlanta, GA 30303
16
(404) 572-6600
17 L. LIN WOOD, ESQ.
18 The
Equitable Building
19 100
Peachtree Street
20
Suite 2140
21
Atlanta, GA 30303
22
(404) 522-1713
23 -and-
24 .
25 .
3
1 For the Deponent:
2 CHARLES P. DIAMOND,
ESQ.
3 O'Melveny & Myers
4
1999 Avenue of the Stars
5 Los
Angeles, CA 90067-6035
6
(310) 553-6700
7 SEAN R. SMITH, ESQ.
8 Dow, Lohnes &
Albertson
9 One
Ravinia Drive
10
Suite 1600
11
Atlanta GA 30346-2108
12
(770) 901-8800
13 .
14 Also present:
15 JAY R. REN, CLVS
16 TODD TOMPKINS,
Videographer Intern
17 O.M.
"Ollie" Gray
18 .
19 .
20 .
21 .
22 .
23 .
24 .
25 .
4
1
Deposition of Steven Thomas
2
September 21, 2001
3
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time
is
4 9:07. We're on the record. This is the
5 deposition of Steve
Thomas for the case of
6 Robert Christian Wolf
versus John Bennett
7 Ramsey and Patricia Paugh Ramsey, Case
Number
8 00-CIV-1187 in the U.
S. District Court,
9 Atlanta Division,
State of Georgia. Today is
10 September 21st, 2001.
11
We are located at 1100 Fourteenth
12 Street, Denver,
Colorado. The court reporter
13 is Kelly Mackereth of
Boverie, Jackson, Busby
14 and Speera. The videographer is Jay R. Ren,
15 certified legal video
specialist for Ren Video
16 Services.
17
The attorneys will identify
18 themselves beginning
with the attorney on the
19 left and the
deponent's right.
20
MR. WOOD: My name is Lin
Wood.
21 I represent John and
Patsy Ramsey.
22
MR. RAWLS: I'm Jim
Rawls. I'm
23 co-counsel with Lin
Wood representing John and
24 Patsy Ramsey.
25
MR. GRAY: My name is Ollie
Gray.
5
1 I'm an investigator
in this case.
2
MR. DIAMOND: I am Chuck
Diamond
3 of O'Melveny & Myers
representing the witness,
4 Steve Thomas.
5
MR. SMITH: I'm Sean Smith,
and I
6 also represent Steve
Thomas.
7
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Also, on
the
8 phone.
9
MR. WOOD: Your turn,
Darnay.
10
MR. HOFFMAN: I'm Darnay
Hoffman,
11 and I represent the
Plaintiff, Robert
12 Christian Wolf.
13
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The reporter
14 will now swear in the
witness.
15
MR. WOOD: You ready for us?
16
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Yes,
we're
17 ready to swear in the
witness.
18
MR. WOOD: Would you swear
the
19 witness, please.
20
STEVEN THOMAS, having been first
21 duly sworn, was
examined and testified as
22 follows:
23
EXAMINATION
24
BY-MR.WOOD:
25
Q. This
will be the deposition of
6
1 Steve Thomas. The deposition is taken
2 pursuant to the
Federal Rules of Civil
3
Procedure and the Federal Rules of Evidence.
4
The deposition is taken pursuant
5 to subpoena duly
served and notice duly filed
6 and also pursuant to
the order and rulings of
7 Judge Jewell Carnes in denying Mr. Thomas'
8 motion to quash the
subpoena. And I would
9 also note for the
record that within the
10 ruling of Judge
Carnes' counsel for
11 Mr. Thomas and for
the parties have agreed as
12 to the date and the
location of the
13 deposition.
14
I understand that Mr. Thomas will
15 read and sign the
deposition. We would agree
16 that can be
undertaken before an authorized
17 notary public. Everybody set?
18
MR. DIAMOND: Go ahead.
19
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) All right.
20 Mr. Thomas, you've
been sworn. Let me ask
21 you
for the record, please, to state your
22 full name.
23
A. My
full name is William Steven
24 Walton Thomas.
25
Q. You go
by Steve?
7
1
A. I do.
2
Q. Do you
have any preference? I'll
3 probably call you Mr.
Thomas but if you would
4 rather I call you
Steve or something you just
5 let me know?
6
A. Steve,
Mr. Thomas.
7
Q. All
right. I may bounce back and
8 forth. What is your --
9
MR. DIAMOND: Let's stay on
a
10 last-name basis. It is a sworn testimony.
11
MR. WOOD: Yeah.
12
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Well, let me ask
13 you this if you
would, Mr. Thomas, would you
14 give me your present
residence address?
15
A.
16
17
MR. DIAMOND:
19
A.
20
21
MR. DIAMOND: That's what I
think
22 he wanted.
23 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Do you have any
24 present plans to move
from that residence?
25
A.
Ultimately I will leave Colorado
8
1 but, no, for the moment, that's where I'm
2 residing.
3
Q. Do you
have any plans even though
4 they may be tentative
in terms of when you
5 would hope to leave
Colorado?
6 A. Certainly not before
this matter
7 is resolved.
8
Q. This
matter being the Chris Wolf
9 case or this matter
being the lawsuit filed
10 by John and Patsy
Ramsey against you?
11
A. Both.
12
Q. Okay. So we would be safe to say
13 you're here in
Colorado at least through the
14 duration of those two
matters; is that true?
15
A. Yes.
16
Q.
17
A.
18
Q.
19
A.
20
Q.
21
A.
22
23
Q.
24
A.
25 Q.
9
1
2
A.
3
Q.
4
A.
5
Q.
6
A.
7 Q.
8
MR. DIAMOND:
9
10
MR. WOOD:
11
12
MR. DIAMOND:
13
14
15
16 MR. WOOD:
17
18 take it. If you have an instruction to the
19 witness to make, make
it and we'll move onto
20 the next question.
21
MR. DIAMOND: We'll
designate that
22 confidential. We can talk about that at the
23 conclusion of the
deposition.
24
MR. WOOD: Sure. We're going to
25 have at some point a
protective order to
10
1 present you with that
you all will have the
2 opportunity to sign
onto.
3
MR. DIAMOND: Yeah, I've
seen
4 that.
5 MR. WOOD: Yeah, and that would
6 protect that
information if he wants to give
7 it to me. If you all want to then designate
8 it within the time
period allowed by law so
9 subject to that
designation I assume you will
10 let him answer.
11
MR. DIAMOND: I will.
12
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD)
13
14
15 A.
16
Q.
17 A.
18
Q.
19
A.
20
Q.
21
A.
22
Q.
23
A.
24
Q.
25
A.
11
1
Q.
2
3
4
A.
5
Q.
6
7
A.
8 Q.
9
10
A.
11
Q.
12
A.
13
14
15
MR. DIAMOND: Do you
know? If
16 you don't know, you
don't know.
17 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) That's something
18 you could get copies
of down the road if we
19 need it I'm sure,
true?
20
A. I'm
sure we have those somewhere.
21
Q. Okay. Do you have any other --
22 do you engage in any
other present activities
23 for compensation in
terms of trying to earn
24 money, other than
your business as a
25 carpenter?
12
1
A.
Occasionally I'm asked to speak.
2
Q. Speak
in what capacity?
3
A.
Occasionally I'm asked to speak to
4 different groups, law
enforcement primarily.
5
Q. Do you
solicit invitations to
6 speak from
organizations?
7
A.
Recently we have in conjunction
8 with some defense
fund raising.
9 Q. When you say "we have" who is
we?
10
A. People
who are helping me with
11 that legal defense
fund raising.
12
Q. Who is
"we" then, please, by name?
13
A.
Sherill Whisenand.
14
Q. Anyone
else?
15
A. No.
16
Q. And
what is Sherill Wisinhunt?
17
MR. DIAMOND: Whisenand.
18
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Whisenand. When
19 did you first meet her?
20
A. I
probably first spoke with her in
21 1999.
22
Q. And
who is she employed with?
23
A.
Currently I believe she's
24 self-employed.
25
Q. What
is the name of her company,
13
1 do you know?
2
A. I also
think she -- I do think
3 she also has other
employment but the name of
4 her company is Wise
Connections.
5
Q. Is she
a public relations person?
6
A. I
don't know how she bills
7 herself.
8
Q. What do you see her as?
9
A. A
friend.
10
Q. You
don't know what her business
11 is?
12
A. I know
she works with Dr. Laura
13 as a producer with
that radio show.
14
Q. You
don't know what type of
15 business she does in
connection with her work
16 Wise Connections?
17
A. Yes,
she helps me with speaking.
18
Q. Did
she form that company Wise
19 Connections just to
help you?
20
A. I
don't know.
21
Q. Do you
know whether it existed
22 before she met you?
23
A. I
don't know.
24 Q. How did you come to meet her?
25
A.
Through a mutual friend.
14
1
Q. Who is
that?
2
A.
Anthony Robbins.
3
Q. Tony
Robbins, the fellow we see on
4 TV?
5
A. Yes.
6
Q. And
when did you -- I'm sorry.
7 You first spoke with
her, is that when you
8 met her in 1999?
9
A. No, I
did not meet her in person
10 until some point
after that. I spoke with
11 her for a period of
time on the telephone.
12
Q. And I
assume that that was in
13 connection with, what, raising funds did
you
14 tell me?
15
A. At
what point are you talking
16 about --
17
Q. When
you met --
18
A. --
when I first met her?
19
Q. Yeah.
20
A. No, I
wasn't raising funds in
21 1999. When I first met her was simply we
22 struck up a
friendship when I was calling
23 Tony Robbins' office.
24
Q. When
did you get into, in effect,
25 a business
relationship with her, when did
15
1 that start?
2
A. I think
at some point I tired of
3 taking media calls
and the calls for speaking
4 and she volunteered
to take those for me.
5
Q. When
did that happen?
6
A.
Probably late '99, 2000, sometime
7 during the calendar
year of 2000.
8
Q. Or
late the calendar year of 1999?
9
A.
Possibly. I don't recall.
10
Q. Well,
your answer was when I said
11 when did that happen
you said probably late
12 '99, 2000, sometime
during the calendar year
13 2000; is that
correct?
14
A. I'm
trying to give you a sense
15 for when that
occurred.
16 MR.
DIAMOND: What's your best
17 recollection? I'm sorry, I lost the thread.
18 The time period --
19
MR. WOOD: I'm trying to
find out
20 -- yeah, hold on one
second, I'll tell you
21 exactly. I asked him the date of when he
22 entered into, in
effect, a business
23 relationship with
her, the date.
24
A. I
think it would have been the
25 calendar year
sometime during 2000 because
16
1 that's when the calls
and the requests came.
2
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Let me see if this
3 will help you. Was it prior to the
4 publication of your
book?
5
A. I
don't recall, but as I mentioned
6 I think when I had
her take over these calls
7 and requests was
after the flurry, after the
8 book was released.
9
Q. Does
that lead you to believe that
10 in probability you
did not engage in a
11 business relationship
with Sherill Whisenand
12 until after the April
2000 publication of
13 your book
"JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder
14 Investigation"?
15
A. Well,
there's not a bright line in
16 my head because I
still consider her a friend
17 and when that transitioned at some point
to
18 some business work
the friendship certainly
19 didn't cease and that
doesn't stand out in my
20 head.
21
Q. Did
you have any flurry of phone
22 calls from the media
prior to the publication
23 of your book?
24
A. Yes.
25
Q. Did
you handle all of those or do
17
1 you recall Sherill
Whisenand handling some of
2 them?
3
A. She
may have handled some of
4 those.
5
Q. So
that tells me it may be that
6 you were involved in a business relationship
7 with her prior to the
publication of your
8 book possibly?
9
A. Well,
when you say business
10 relationship --
11
Q. When
she's handling media calls
12 for you?
13
A. The
fact that she took calls for
14 me she certainly did
that as a friend as
15 well because she
volunteered to do that.
16
(Exhibit-1 was marked.)
17
MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, I
expect
18 you're going to tie
this into a line of
19 questioning that has
to do with the work that
20 he did as a police
investigator in connection
21 with the Ramsey case?
22
MR. WOOD: Stay tuned. I'm going
23 to let you look at it
and I'm going to ask
24 him questions about
it.
25
MR. DIAMOND: Well, I'm
going to
18
1 limit you to that
because that's what this
2 deposition is about.
3
MR. WOOD: If you have an
4 instruction under the Federal Rules of
Civil
5 Procedure to make,
Mr. Diamond, feel free to
6 make it. I've asked you to take a look at
7 this exhibit. I'm going to ask Mr. Thomas
8 to take a look at
it. It's been marked for
9 purposes of
identification as Exhibit 1.
10
MR. DIAMOND: Go ahead.
11
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) You're familiar
12 with the website set
up with respect to your
13 lecture for hire,
true?
14
A. Yes.
15
Q. And
this is, I take it you would
16 agree, a true and
correct copy of that
17 website page?
18 A. That's not from my
website, that's
19 from another website,
but I'm familiar with
20 that page, yes.
21
Q. Okay. And this obviously
22 advertises your
willingness to lecture on the
23 JonBenet Ramsey case
for compensation, true?
24
MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, the
only
25 reason I can see you
asking these questions
19
1 is concerning the
jurisdictional debate that
2 we currently have
pending --
3
MR. WOOD: I'm asking what
he
4 does for a living.
5
MR. DIAMOND: You can ask
him
6 what he does for a
living. He's told you
7 what he does for a
living. He's a carpenter
8 and he does public
speaking --
9
MR. WOOD: I'm asking him
about
10 that solicitation.
11
MR. DIAMOND: I'm not going
to
12 let you inquire about
that.
13
MR. WOOD: If you have,
14 Mr. Diamond, if you
have a -- we're not here
15 to argue with each
other and I don't --
16
MR. DIAMOND: Well --
17
THE REPORTER: One at a
time.
18
MR. WOOD: Let me finish,
then
19 you'll have time.
20
MR. DIAMOND: Certainly.
21
MR. WOOD: I simply asked
him
22 about this for
purposes of establishing what
23 he does for a living
in whole or in part.
24 If you have an
instruction to make under the
25 Federal Rules of
Civil Procedure, just make
20
1 it. I don't need to debate it.
2
MR. DIAMOND: I will.
3
MR. WOOD: If you instruct
him
4 not to answer the
question, state the
5 privilege, as I
understand that's what you're
6 limited to. State the privilege and make
7 your instruction and
we can address it at a
8 later time.
9
MR. DIAMOND: I'm fully
prepared
10 to do that.
11
MR. WOOD: All right.
12
MR. DIAMOND: And I intend to
do
13 that. I want to give you an opportunity to
14 tell me how this
relates to the subject
15 matter of the
deposition --
16
MR. WOOD: I did.
17
MR. DIAMOND: -- within the
18 framework that Judge
Carnes said you were
19 allowed to
inquire. And, you know, if you're
20 prepared to tender a
good cause showing, I'm
21 happy to let him
answer. Obviously, on its
22 face this is going
nowhere but to the
23 jurisdictional
dispute that my client and your
24 client are currently
engaged in unless there
25 is some other
reason. He's already told you
21
1 what he does for a
living.
2
I'll have the pending question
3 read, and then I'll
decide whether to
4 instruct him or not.
5
MR. WOOD: I don't think
there is
6 a pending
question. I think he told me that
7 it was a -- he was
familiar with this
8 website and has his
own website.
9 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) What is your
10 website address?
11
A. It's
not necessarily my website.
12 It's a website that
was created by a
13 supporter of mine,
and the address is
14 www.forstevethomas.com.
15
MR. DIAMOND: He wanted to
know
16 your website. Do you have a website?
17
THE DEPONENT: I thought
that was
18 the one he was
talking about.
19
MR. DIAMOND: No. Do you have a
20 website?
21
THE DEPONENT: No.
22
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) So did you
23 misspeak a minute ago
when you said something
24 about your website because you said that's
25 not from my website,
that's from another
22
1 website but I'm
familiar with that page. Did
2 you misspeak when you said the words
"my
3 website"?
4
A. There
is a website owned by a
5 third party who is a
supporter of mine.
6
Q. Who is
that?
7
A. A woman I know as B.J.
8
Q. You
don't know her full name?
9
A.
Barbara, I don't know her last
10 name.
11
Q. Do you
know where she lives?
12
A. Ohio.
13
Q. Where
in Ohio?
14
A. I
don't know.
15
Q. So
other than the
16 lecture-for-profit
business and the carpentry
17 business, do you have
any other employment at
18 the present time?
19
A. No.
20
Q. Did
you authorize Plaintiff's
21 Exhibit Number 1 to
be posted to solicit
22 speaking engagements?
23
A. Yes.
24
Q. Have
you ever been deposed before?
25
A. In a
civil proceeding?
23
1
Q. Let's
start there, in a civil
2 proceeding?
3
A. No. No.
4
Q. That
makes me believe that you
5 have been deposed in
a criminal proceeding;
6 is that true?
7
A. Well,
certainly I'm not familiar
8 with the civil aspect
of this as much as I
9 am the criminal half
of things. I have
10 given testimony
certainly in criminal cases,
11 but I have never been
deposed in a setting
12 like this.
13
Q. The
testimony you have given in
14 criminal cases has
been, I assume, either in
15 hearings or trials in
a courtroom?
16
A. In
front of grand jurors, yeah.
17 Q. Right. You've never sat in a
18 deposition where no
judge is present, no
19 grand jury is
present, just the lawyers where
20 we take what is
called a deposition; is that
21 your testimony?
22
A. I was
present in a deposition
23 many, many years ago
in the 1980s in a
24 police case but I
don't recall that I ever
25 had to give
testimony.
24
1
Q. Was
that some sort of a civil
2 lawsuit?
3
A.
Exactly.
4
Q. Were
you a defendant in that
5 matter?
6 A. The city and myself
and other
7 officers, yes.
8
Q. And
where was that?
9
A. The
City of Wheat Ridge, Colorado.
10
Q. Were
you sued for a violation of
11 civil rights?
12
A. No, I
don't think that was the
13 basis of the suit.
14
Q. What
was the basis?
15
A. We
stopped a car we believed to
16 be stolen. It turned out not to be and the
17 people felt wronged
by that.
18
Q. So you
were sued as a defendant
19 along with others and
the City of Wheat
20 Ridge, Colorado?
21
A. Correct.
22
Q. Do you
know how that case was
23 resolved?
24
A. I
think it settled.
25
Q. Moneys
paid to the plaintiff?
25
1
A. That's
my understanding.
2
Q. On
your behalf as well as the
3 city's behalf?
4
A. I
don't know.
5
Q. But
that was -- was that filed in
6 the Wheat Ridge or
the county of Wheat Ridge?
7
A. I
don't know.
8
Q. But in
Colorado?
9
A. Yes.
10
Q. Were
you deposed?
11
A. That's
what I just said, no. I
12 don't -- I don't know
that I had to give any
13 testimony in that.
14
Q. I
thought you said you were
15 present for
deposition; I may have
16 misunderstood. I don't know if you were
17 there watching
someone in attendance or
18 whether you were
actually deposed and you're
19 not sure of which; is
that right?
20
A. I
recall being in a setting
21 similar to this where
the other parties were
22 on the other side of
the table and there was
23 some Q and A, but I
think it was the other
24 side.
25
Q. Other
than that lawsuit, have you
26
1 ever been sued in any
other matters?
2 Obviously we know
about the John and Patsy
3 Ramsey lawsuit
against you. Other than those
4 two cases, have you
ever been sued in a
5 civil case?
6
A. I
don't recall any other, no,
7 civil suit in my
capacity as a police officer
8 or as a citizen.
9
Q.
10
11
A.
12
Q.
13
14
A.
15
Q.
16
A.
17
Q.
18
19
MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, what
is
20 that relevant to?
21
MR. WOOD: Well, it may very
well
22 be relevant to jury
--
23
MR. DIAMOND: I'm sorry.
24
MR. WOOD: It may very well
be
25 relevant to jury
issues.
27
1
MR. DIAMOND: I'm sorry, to
jury
2 issues?
3
MR. WOOD: Yes, sir. When you
4 select a jury, I may
want to know his former
5 wife's residence or
name or employment in the
6 jury selection
process. Now, let me say this
7 to you, Mr. Diamond, I'm not going to
debate
8 relevance. My question is simple. If you
9 have an instruction
to make to the witness,
10 make it. But we can't waste time going back
11 and forth discussing
relevance.
12
I ask that question of every
13 witness in a
deposition. It's done for jury
14 purposes. It's a legitimate question. May
15 we please get an
answer and move on?
16
MR. DIAMOND: You may answer
17 whether or not she
lives in the State of
18 Georgia.
19
A.
20
21
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD)
22
23
24
A.
25
Q.
28
1
2
A.
3
4
5 Q.
6
7
A.
8
9
Q.
10
11
12
13
A.
14
Q. Tell
me if you would, Mr. Thomas,
15 about what your
deposition preparation was in
16 this case. What did you do to prepare for
17 the deposition?
18
A. I met
with my attorneys and they
19 explained to me how
--
20 MR.
DIAMOND: You don't need to
21 get into the context.
22
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Yeah, I don't want
23 to know what, unless
your attorneys want me
24 to know, I suspect
they don't. I don't need
25 to know what you and
your attorneys
29
1 discussed. I would like to know the fact of
2 the meeting, when it
took place and how long
3 it lasted.
4
A. I met
on Wednesday, September
5 19th, with Mr. Sean
Smith for several hours
6 and then yesterday,
September 20th of 2001, I
7 met again several
hours with Mr. Smith and
8 with Chuck Diamond.
9
Q. Tell
me how many hours, your best
10 estimate as to how
many hours several hours
11 is on the 19th, let's
start there, with
12 Mr. Smith.
13
A. A full
day. We took a long
14 lunch, but I think we
began our day at 9:30
15 a.m. and ended around
5 p.m.
16
Q. And
then yesterday, how long?
17 A. Similar.
18
Q. 9:30
to 5 with a lunch break?
19
A. Yeah,
we may have gone past 5
20 o'clock last evening,
maybe 6 or 7 p.m.
21
Q. And
was Mr. Diamond here yesterday
22 during the day?
23
A. Yes.
24
Q. At the
beginning of your meeting
25 at 9 a.m. or 9:30
a.m.?
30
1 A. I certainly believe so.
2
Q. I only
asked because I was under
3 the impression he was
not available to be
4 here yesterday but
that's all right, that's
5 not an issue for you
to worry about.
6
Did you review any written
7 materials in
preparation for your deposition?
8
A. I
reviewed my book.
9
Q. That
book being, identified earlier
10 "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder
11
Investigation." You
have a copy of the hard
12 back with you I see?
13
A. It's a
hard back I looked at,
14 yes.
15
Q. Okay. Did you review any other
16 written materials?
17
A. No.
18
Q. Do you
have notes that you
19 utilized in writing
your book?
20
A. No,
let me interrupt you. I did
21 stuck in -- stuck in
this book was a
22 two-page report from
the Chris Wolf matter
23 that I did review.
24
Q. Do you
have a copy of that?
25
A. No.
31
1
Q. Is
that something we could see?
2
MR. DIAMOND: What's that?
3
MR. WOOD: The two-page
report on
4 the Chris Wolf matter
that he reviewed in
5 preparation, is that
something we could take
6 a look at?
7
MR. DIAMOND: We don't have
it,
8 it's not with him
today.
9
Q. (BY MR.
WOOD) Was this something
10 prepared by your
attorneys?
11
A. No.
12
Q. Who
was it prepared by?
13
A. This
was, I found stuck in a book
14 this summer a two-page
report that I had
15 written as a police
detective on the Jackie
16 Dilson, Chris Wolf
matter.
17
Q. And
you have that where presently
18 located?
19
A. That's
probably in a folder
20 sitting at home.
21
Q. And
you will maintain possession
22 of that at my request
in the event we decide
23 we would like to ask
for that formally,
24 subject to your
attorney's agreement that we
25 would be entitled to
it down the road?
32
1
A.
Certainly.
2
MR. DIAMOND: Happy to hold
on to
3 it.
4
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) I assume that what
5 you're telling me,
Mr. Thomas, is you've got
6 two pages of notes
that you've made yourself
7 on Chris Wolf
relating to the investigation
8 of Chris Wolf?
9
A. No.
10
Q. Tell
me what exactly, maybe I
11 didn't understand
you, what those two pages
12 are.
13
A. It's
not notes. It's a two-page
14 typewritten report
that I had prepared.
15
Q. For
the Boulder Police Department?
16
A. Yes.
17
Q. Do you
remember the date of that
18 report?
19
A.
January 1998.
20
Q.
January of '98?
21
A. I'm
sorry, January of 1997.
22
Q. Okay. Did you prepare any other
23 written reports for
the Boulder Police
24 Department about
Chris Wolf, other than the
25 two-page report
you've referred to that is
33
1 dated January of
1997?
2 A. Certainly.
3
Q. Have
you had an opportunity to
4 review them in
preparation for your
5 deposition?
6
A. No.
7
Q. Do you
-- did you have notes from
8 which you relied on
in whole or in part in
9 writing your book
"JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey
10 Murder
Investigation"?
11
MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, I'm
going
12 to instruct him not
to answer.
13
MR. WOOD: On what
privilege?
14
MR. DIAMOND: Not on
privilege,
15 the limitation that
was imposed by Judge
16 Carnes or the
condition in which he allowed
17 this deposition to go
forward.
18
MR. WOOD: Excuse me, I
don't
19 know --
20
MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, you
let me
21 finish and I'll let
you finish.
22
MR. WOOD: I apologize for
23 interrupting, but let
me say this to you --
24
MR. DIAMOND: Well, then
don't
25 interrupt me. I will finish what I'm saying.
34
1
MR. WOOD: Mr. Diamond --
2
MR. DIAMOND: Maybe --
3
THE REPORTER: Please, one
at a
4 time.
5
MR. WOOD: Excuse me. We're
6 going to take a break
off the record. I'm
7 not going to let you
yell at me. Calm down.
8 We'll come back and
we'll start again in five
9 minutes. We'll go off the record and not
10 waste deposition
time.
11
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time
is now
12 9:34. We're going off the record.
13
(Recess taken from 9:35 a.m. to
14 9:45 a.m.)
15
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time
is
16 9:45. We're back on the record.
17
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) I'm going to try
18 to make sure I can
avoid any problems that
19 Mr. Diamond might
have with my question. Let
20 me go back and
withdraw the last question and
21 restate it. What I would like to know,
22 Mr. Thomas, is do you
have notes pertaining
23 to your involvement
in or the investigation
24 of the murder of
JonBenet Ramsey?
25
A. The
Boulder Police Department has
35
1 those notes. I don't know that I have any
2 notes.
3
Q. You
left the Department by
4 resignation of August
the 6th, right?
5
A. Yes.
6
Q. 1998?
7
A. Yes.
8
Q. When
did you turn over all of
9 your notes to the
Boulder Police Department?
10
A.
Shortly thereafter.
11
Q. Who
did you turn them over to?
12
A. I returned
my briefcases and those
13 contents, along with
all my police equipment,
14 which was
inventoried, to Commander Dave Hayes
15 and Sergeant Michael
Ready.
16
Q. Did
you turn over your case
17 notebooks?
18
A.
Everything.
19
Q. How
many case notebooks did you
20 turn over?
21
A. What
do you mean by case
22 notebooks?
23 Q. Don't you know what the case
24 notebook was used in
this case, sir, filled
25 out by all of the
detectives on a daily
36
1 basis?
2
MR. DIAMOND: He may ask you
for
3 an explanation, what
you're referring to.
4 You're not going to
help him out?
5
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Do you know, sir,
6 what the case
notebooks were in this case in
7 terms of the
notebooks prepared by the
8 detectives, I believe
on a daily basis?
9
A. A case
notebook that was
10 prepared --
11 Q. Did you have --
12
A. -- on
a daily basis?
13
Q. Yes. Did you have a notebook
14 that you kept,
maintained with respect to
15 your investigation?
16
A. I had
folders and my working
17 papers which I
maintained with respect to my
18 parts of the
investigation.
19
MR. DIAMOND: He's asking
about a
20 notebook.
21
THE DEPONENT: Yeah, I know.
22
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) You didn't have
23 them in any notebook
form?
24
A. No.
25
Q. Now,
those working papers, all of
37
1 that was turned back
into the Boulder Police
2 Department shortly
after you resigned in
3 August of 1998?
4
A. Yes.
5
Q. You maintained
no notebooks; is
6 that right?
7
A. I
maintained copies of those.
8
Q. So you
have copies of your
9 reports?
10
A. No, I
didn't say that. I don't
11 know that I have those copies anymore.
12
Q. Well,
you said you maintained
13 copies. Copies of what?
14
A. I
maintained copies of what was in
15 my working file
briefcase which I returned to
16 the Boulder Police
Department.
17
Q. How
many pages of documents are we
18 talking about?
19
A. A
couple hundred maybe.
20
Q. Do you
have those presently in
21 your possession,
custody or control?
22
A. No.
23
Q. What
did you do with them?
24
A. I
don't know.
25
Q. They
just mysteriously disappeared?
38
1
A. No, I
have moved twice in the
2 interim. We have some things in storage.
3 We, my wife moved
overseas. If I still had
4 a cardboard box full
of those documents or
5 materials. I'm unaware of their present
6 location.
7
Q. When
do you last recall looking at
8 them or reviewing
them?
9
(Discussion off the record between
10 the deponent and Mr.
Diamond.)
11
A. I last
looked at those in --
12
MR. DIAMOND: He has
mentioned the
13 first full report
that he --
14
MR. WOOD: Yeah, well, let
him
15 answer that.
16
MR. DIAMOND: Are you
excluding
17 that?
18
MR. WOOD: No, I'm not
excluding
19 anything. I want to learn everything.
20
A. Early
2000.
21
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) How early 2000?
22
A.
Probably February or March.
23
Q. That
was the last time you saw
24 them?
25
A. Right.
39
1
Q. And
when did you move?
2
A. I
moved -- I sold my house this
3 summer, summer of 2001.
4
Q. And
did you pack up your
5 possessions?
6
A. Yes.
7
Q. So you
don't have any explanation
8 to offer as to what
happened to your JonBenet
9 Ramsey working papers
since you last claimed
10 to have seen them
sometime in February or
11 March of 19' -- of
2000?
12
A. Yeah,
after I last looked at them,
13 this was a cardboard
box full of these
14 documents. And to your question, yeah, I
15 don't know where they
are currently.
16
Q. You
did not destroy them
17 intentionally, did
you?
18
A. No.
19
Q. You
didn't intentionally lose them,
20 did you?
21
A. No.
22
Q. You
didn't think they were
23 valuable to keep?
24
A. No,
not necessarily.
25
Q. When
did you -- in terms of that,
40
1 you did know at some
point that the Ramseys
2 indicated they were
going to file a lawsuit
3 against you if you
published a book, didn't
4 you?
5
A. Repeat
the question, please.
6
Q. You
knew early on when your book
7 was published that
the Ramseys had stated
8 that they were going
to file a lawsuit
9 against you?
10
A. I had
heard through the media that
11 they had made those
threats.
12
Q. You didn't
think it might be wise
13 to keep up with your
notes to have those in
14 the event there was a
lawsuit?
15
A. Those
are all available in the
16 Boulder Police
Department.
17 Q. So everything that you had, the
18 200 pages is
available from the Boulder
19 Police Department; is
that right?
20
A. Yes,
as I said, I turned
21 everything back to
the Boulder Police
22 Department.
23
Q. In
fact, there's quotes in your
24 book, for example, of
interview testimony from
25 different
individuals. For example, there
are
41
1 quotes alleged to
have been made by Burke
2 Ramsey in June of
1998, by John Ramsey in
3 June of 1998, by
Patsy Ramsey in June of
4 1998, by John Ramsey
in April of 1997, by
5 Patsy Ramsey in April
of 1997 during police
6 or district attorney
interviews.
7
MR. DIAMOND: You'll
represent
8 that is the case?
9
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Yeah, well, that
10 is the case, isn't
it; you know that to be
11 true, don't you?
12
A. That
the book contained --
13
Q. Quotes
from the interviews of
14 April 1997 and June
of 1998 of John and
15 Patsy Ramsey and from
Burke of June of 1998?
16
A. Yeah,
I would agree with that.
17
Q. I'm
just trying to find out, for
18 example, your notes, would
they -- would the
19 notes have those
quotes in them?
20
A. What
notes are you referring to?
21
Q. The
notes that you can't find now.
22 How would you have
quotes --
23
MR. DIAMOND: I'm going to
object.
24
MR. WOOD: Let me.
25
MR. DIAMOND: He didn't say
he
42
1 couldn't find
them. He said he doesn't know
2 where they are. You haven't asked him
3 whether he's been
looking for them recently,
4 have you?
5
MR. WOOD: Well, I mean, I
will
6 ask him that in a minute. Again, Chuck,
7 we'll move quicker if
you limit yourself to
8 instructions on
privilege.
9
MR. DIAMOND:
Mischaracterizes his
10 testimony in your --
11
MR. WOOD: That's not an
objection
12 on privilege,
nonetheless.
13
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, I'm
14 trying to figure out
whether you had notes
15 that would have had
these precise quotes in
16 them and that's how
you were able to use
17 them to come up with
the quotes in your
18 book. Or did you come up with those quotes
19 from their various
interviews from your mind's
20 eye, your own
recollection only? Do you
21 follow me?
22
A. Yes.
23
Q. Which
was the case?
24
A. They
were either in notes which I
25 had or in documents I
subsequently received.
43
1
Q. And
what documents did you
2 subsequently receive
about the investigation?
3 A. After I left the police
4 department, over a
period of time I received
5 through the mail
various documents concerning
6 the investigation.
7
Q. From
whom?
8 A. Anonymously through
the mail.
9
Q.
Postmarked from where?
10
A.
Boulder or Denver.
11
Q. And
were these documents police
12 files or reports on
the JonBenet Ramsey
13 investigation?
14
A. Yes.
15
Q. Were
they documents from the
16 district attorney's
office on the JonBenet
17 Ramsey investigation?
18
A. What
do you mean from the district
19 attorney's office?
20
Q. Well,
for example, a report
21 prepared by Michael
Kane, as opposed to a
22 report prepared by
Mark Beckner. One works
23 for the Boulder PD
and one works for the
24 district attorney or
did. You know the
25 difference.
44
1
A. No,
these were Boulder Police
2
Department documents.
3
Q. And
how many pages of documents
4 did you receive
subsequent to the time that
5 you left the Boulder
Police Department that
6 concerned the JonBenet
Ramsey murder
7 investigation?
8
A.
Several hundred.
9
Q. Where
are those documents?
10
A.
Unknown. They would be in
the
11 same box if I still
have it.
12
Q. So how
many -- let me see if I've
13 got all the sources
of written materials that
14 you had after you
left the Boulder Police
15 Department on August
the 6th, 1998. You had
16 some couple hundred
pages of your work papers
17 that you had copied,
correct?
18
A.
Correct.
19
Q. You
didn't make copies of police
20 reports?
21
A. In
what context are you talking
22 about?
23
Q. In
this 200 some odd pages of
24 your working papers,
were there also copies
25 of police files,
police reports on the
45
1 JonBenet Ramsey
investigation?
2
A. Yes,
these were my working papers,
3 yes.
4
Q. Well,
for example, would it only
5 be reports prepared
by you or did you have
6 copies of reports
prepared by other officers?
7
A. As I
was the affiant on the
8 master affidavit in
this case I certainly was
9 in possession of reports
from others to
10 include in any search
or arrest warrant in
11 this case.
12
Q. So the
answer is yes?
13
A. To
what question?
14
Q. The
one I asked you. Did you
15 have copies of other
officers' reports on the
16 JonBenet Ramsey case
in your working papers?
17
A. Yes.
18
Q. You
make reference to being the
19 affiant on the master
affidavit. Did your
20 working papers then
include copies of all of
21 the documents that
you had and had in any
22 way relied on in
preparing the master
23 affidavit in the
JonBenet Ramsey case?
24
A. If I
understand you correctly, no.
25
Q. Were
you authorized to keep those
46
1 copies by the Boulder
Police Department?
2
A. When I
resigned abruptly, I
3 returned all those
papers to the Boulder
4 Police Department and
there was no further
5 communication between
us.
6
Q. But
did you tell them you had
7 kept copies of the
papers?
8
A. No.
9
Q. Am I
correct that everything you
10 had in your physical
possession in terms of
11 case files, case reports,
notes, at the time
12 that you resigned,
whatever you turned over
13 to the Boulder Police
Department at the time
14 of your resignation,
you made copies of and
15 kept yourself; is
that right?
16
A. I
believe so.
17
Q. And
that was only a couple hundred
18 pages?
19
A. I
believe so, yes.
20
Q. And
did you keep, for example, a
21 transcript of the
April 30, 1997 interview
22 that you conducted
with Patsy Ramsey?
23
A. I
don't know.
24
Q. So
subsequent to leaving, from
25 what period of time
until what period of time
47
1 were you receiving
anonymous police file
2 information on the
JonBenet Ramsey case that
3 you say totaled
several hundred pages? When
4 did it start and when
did you last get
5 something?
6
A.
Initially after I had made my
7 intentions known that
I was going to tell my
8 story through a
book. And that was probably
9 early, maybe January
of 1999 and throughout
10 that calendar year of
1999.
11
Q. Any
materials in the year 2000?
12
A. Not
that I recall.
13
Q. Did you
make any efforts to
14 solicit information
from any member of the
15 Boulder Police
Department about the
16 investigation after
you left?
17
MR. DIAMOND: May I ask a
18 clarifying
question? Solicit written
19 materials or just
talking to somebody?
20
MR. WOOD: Information, case
21 information about the
case.
22
A. Can
you repeat the question
23 please?
24
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Sure, did you make
25 any efforts to
solicit information about the
48
1 JonBenet murder investigation
from any member
2 of the Boulder Police
Department after you
3 left the department
in August of 1998?
4
A. No.
5
Q. Do you
have any idea who sent you
6 any of these alleged
anonymous documents?
7
A. These
are smart people. No.
8
Q. How do
you know they were accurate
9 if you don't know who
sent them to you?
10
A.
Because I had previously seen all
11 of them.
12
Q. So
this was information that was
13 contained in the case
file that you didn't
14 copy when you left
the force, but it predated
15 your leaving the
force; is that true?
16
A. Yes.
17
Q. Did
you ever receive any
18 information about
grand jury testimony or
19 evidence in the case?
20
A. Never.
21
Q. Did
you ever receive any
22 information about the
investigation in terms
23 of efforts and
information subsequent to the
24 investigation August
1998? Let me withdraw
25 that and make it a
little bit cleaner.
49
1
I want to know, you tell me the
2 information you got
predated your resignation
3 date. Did you ever get any new information,
4 that is to say
information that was generated
5 about the case after
August of 1998?
6
A.
Without reviewing this box, I
7 would have to say as
we sit here now that it
8 was all pre-August
'98. I don't recall
9 sitting here that any
of it was post-August
10 '98.
11
Q. So
that the documents that you
12 have and the
information that you had about
13 the case, your best
recollection is that
14 would have been
limited to information
15 generated prior to
August of 1998, true?
16
A. Yes.
17
MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, I see
no
18 relevance to this
line other than to find out
19 what he knew at the
time he wrote the book.
20 I instruct him not to
answer. If you want
21 to take this up with
the judge, I am happy
22 to do so. If you want to make a record as
23 to why this is
relevant to the Wolf case,
24 I'm happy to listen
to you. Otherwise, he's
25 instructed not to
answer. Move on.
50
1
MR. WOOD: Is there a
privilege
2 being asserted?
3
MR. DIAMOND: You heard me,
move
4 on.
5
MR. WOOD: Sir, if you will
be
6 polite, we will be
polite, also.
7
MR. DIAMOND: Go ahead. I am
8 happy to be polite.
9
MR. WOOD: Yes, sir, please
do.
10
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) My question is,
11 I'm trying to find
out about your knowledge
12 concerning the
JonBenet Ramsey investigation.
13 And it seems from
what I am hearing that
14 your knowledge is limited to information about
15 the case from the
date of the murder in 1996
16 through August of
1998. Is that right?
17
MR. DIAMOND: From police
sources
18 is what you have
asked him about?
19
MR. WOOD: My question is on
the
20 table, now, sir. We can call Judge Carnes
21 and correct the
problem that we're
22 experiencing with you
if we need to. I hope
23 we don't need to.
24
MR. DIAMOND: We may well
have
25 to.
51
1
MR. WOOD: We certainly may
have
2 to if you keep
interrupting inappropriately
3 under the Federal
Rules of Civil Procedure,
4 procedure for
depositions.
5
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Could you answer
6 my question, please,
Mr. Thomas?
7
A. Could
you repeat it for me,
8 please?
9
Q. Sure. I'm going to read it right
10 back to you. I'm trying to find out about
11 your knowledge concerning
the JonBenet Ramsey
12 investigation. And it seems from what I'm
13 hearing that your
knowledge is limited to
14 information about the
case from the date of
15 the murder in 1996
through August of 1998; is
16 that right?
17
A. No,
after August of 1998, I
18 certainly followed
media accounts and what was
19 released publicly and
followed the case with
20 some interest.
21
Q. Fair
enough. Let me add that in.
22 Can I then say in
terms of drawing a circle
23 around your knowledge
of the JonBenet Ramsey
24 murder investigation,
that your knowledge
25 consists of knowledge
about the police
52
1 information and to
some extent district
2 attorney information
from the date of the
3 murder until the time you left in August of
4 1998 and subsequent
to 1998 has been
5 supplemented by what
you have learned either
6 through media
accounts or through official
7 statements from the
Boulder Police Department
8 or the district
attorney's office; is that
9 right?
10
A. Very
confusing question. Can you
11 break that up for
me? I don't understand
12 what you --
13
Q. I just
want to find out what
14 you've got. You've got your personal
15 knowledge. You've got the police file
16 information that you
described for me, the
17 copies of the
documents you copied, the
18 documents that have
been sent to you
19 subsequent. And that all dealt, you believe,
20 pre-August 1998,
right?
21
A. I'm
not following you, Mr. Wood.
22
Q. Well,
stick with me. I'll try
23 and make it simple
for you.
24
A.
Please.
25
Q. More
simple. You've told me about
53
1 the documents. I've covered all the
2 documents, haven't
I? You've got the
3 documents you copied
and you've got the
4 documents that were
anonymously sent to you,
5 right?
6
A. Yes,
that's correct.
7
Q. Do you
have any other documents
8 about this
investigation, other than those
9 documents? Do you?
10
A. Oh,
I'm sorry. If I understand
11 the question
correctly, no, as I said, not
12 that I recall because
post-August '98 began
13 the grand jury. And certainly I don't have
14 any information from
the grand jury room.
15
Q. So
we've got your personal
16 knowledge about your
involvement in the case,
17 right?
18
A. Yes.
19
Q. We've
got your knowledge from the
20 written documents
that you've just described
21 for me?
22
A. Yes.
23
Q. And
then subsequent to August of
24 1998, your knowledge
about the case and its
25 status would be
limited to what you have
54
1 either seen or heard
in the media or what
2 may have been
officially stated by law
3 enforcement authorities,
right?
4
A. As far
as I recall, I don't
5 recall anything, as I
have said, post August
6 of 1998 coming my
way, but I'm not limiting
7 myself to that, if
that answers your
8 question.
9
Q. As we
sit here today, can you
10 think of anything
other than that? Is that
11 your best
recollection as you sit here today,
12 sir?
13
A. Yes,
as I sit here right now, if
14 I understand this
correctly, that's my answer.
15
Q. And
I'm sure that you came to
16 this deposition in an
effort to prepare for
17 it and to refresh
yourself about the
18 investigation, you
knew you were going to be
19 asked about it,
didn't you?
20
A. The
question being I know I was
21 going to be asked
about the investigation?
22 Q. Sure.
23
A. Yes.
24
Q.
JonBenet Ramsey, that was the
25 first murder
investigation that you were
55
1 involved in; is that right?
2
A. As a
detective, yes.
3
Q. You
were involved in a murder
4 investigation in some
other capacity?
5
A. I had
been on homicide scenes as
6 a uniformed officer.
7
Q. But as
a detective actively
8 investigating the
murder, was JonBenet Ramsey
9 the first murder
investigation in that
10 capacity for you?
11 A. Yes.
12
Q. Can we
also say that it was the
13 only one?
14
A. No.
15
Q. So you
were involved as a
16 detective in other
homicide investigations?
17 A. Yes.
18
Q. Tell
me about those. How many?
19
A. One
other.
20
Q. When
was that?
21
A. In
1997, I believe.
22
Q. Is
that the one where the police
23 officer was present
when someone shot someone
24 else in a domestic
dispute?
25
A. Yes.
56
1 Q. And then the person
came down and
2 admitted that he had
shot or she had shot
3 their spouse?
4
A. Yes.
5
Q. And
that was kind of the end all
6 of that case, wasn't
it? Pretty open and
7 shut, wouldn't you
agree?
8
A. When
you say end all, yes, that
9 concluded rather
quickly.
10
Q. Yeah,
I mean as I understand that
11 case, there was a
domestic dispute call, the
12 police officer was
there and one of the
13 spouses shot the
other one and killed them,
14 right?
15
A. Yes.
16
Q. And
then came down to the police
17 headquarters, and I
believe you may have even
18 been the person
talking to the perpetrator,
19 and that person
admitted to shooting his --
20 was it his spouse or
her spouse?
21 A. Her spouse.
22
Q. Her
spouse. Anything other than
23 that one case prior
to the JonBenet Ramsey
24 murder investigation,
did you have any other
25 case where you were
involved in a homicide
57
1 investigation as a
detective?
2
A. No.
3
Q. Okay. So it was the only other
4 one; JonBenet Ramsey
was your last one I'm
5 sure, right?
6
A. No,
the last one was this
7 Jakob-Chien homicide
we're describing.
8
Q. That
was the last one, I thought
9 that was in -- oh, I'm sorry, that was in
10 1997 but your
involvement ended in '97. The
11 last one you've been
involved in went through
12 '98 and that was
JonBenet Ramsey?
13
A. Right.
14 Q. From the time you
were assigned to
15 the JonBenet Ramsey
case up until the time
16 that you left, were
you assigned to any other
17 homicide case?
18
A. Other
than the one we noted, no.
19
Q. And I
take it the JonBenet Ramsey
20 case, other than the
case that you noted,
21 pretty much was your
full-time job; is that
22 right?
23
A. Yes.
24
Q. And
have you ever had any
25 training, formal
training, in handwriting
58
1 analysis?
2
A. No.
3 Q. Have you ever had any
formal
4 training in criminal
profiling?
5
A. No.
6
Q. Other
than the 1997 case where you
7 obtained the
confession from the spouse who
8 shot
her husband while the police officer was
9 present on the
premises, and other than the
10 Ramsey case, have you
ever conducted any
11 other interrogations
of murder suspects or
12 potential suspects?
13
A. On
reported homicides, no, not
14 that I'm aware of.
15
Q. Would
you be willing to authorize
16 us, subject to your
counsel's recommendation
17 or right to object if
he asked, would you be
18 willing to authorize
us to obtain a copy of
19 your Boulder Police
Department personnel file?
20
MR. DIAMOND: You don't have
to
21 answer that. If you want to make a request
22 to me, I will
respond.
23
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) How many internal
24 affairs
investigations have you been the
25 subject of?
59
1
A. I
believe just one.
2
Q. When
was that?
3
A. In the
early to mid part of 19 --
4 of the 1990s.
5
Q. Was
that Wheat Ridge or Boulder?
6
A. That
was with the Boulder Police
7 Department.
8
Q. Did
that stem out of a shooting?
9
A. No.
10
Q. Or did
it -- just give me a
11 general idea of what
it involved.
12
A. An
unauthorized vehicular pursuit.
13
Q. And
that's the only one, the only
14 internal affairs
investigation?
15 A. That's right. The incidents that
16 you refer to -- there
was no further -- to
17 be an internal
affairs complaint there has to
18 be a complainant and
you mentioned the
19 shooting incident,
there was no complaint.
20
Q. Is
there any reason why the
21 two-page report on
Chris Wolf was in your
22 book, why, for
example, that was separated
23 out from the other
box of materials?
24 A. No, I didn't say in
my book. I
25 said in a book. And this summer when I knew
60
1 the Wolf case was
pending, I was pleased to
2 find that folded in
half and stuck in a
3 book.
4
Q. What
book was it stuck in?
5
A. A book
on my desk, on my library
6 shelf.
7
Q. Why
were you pleased to find it?
8
A.
Because I knew I would be giving
9 testimony in this
case and it might help me
10 recollect some of
what I did four or five
11 years ago.
12
Q. You could also refresh yourself
13 with some of the
statements you made in your
14 book about Mr. Wolf,
couldn't you?
15
A. Yes.
16
Q. You
recall Chris Wolf, don't you?
17 A. Yes.
18
Q. Am I
correct that the Boulder
19 Police Department
conducted a thorough
20 investigation of
Chris Wolf?
21
A. I'm
aware and was a participant in
22 the Boulder Police
Department investigating
23 Mr. Wolf, yes.
24
Q. My
question was though, sir, do
25 you agree that the
Boulder Police Department
61
1 conducted a thorough
investigation of Chris
2 Wolf?
3
A. I know
what I did with my
4 involvement with Mr.
Wolf, but I don't have
5 personal knowledge of
what the detectives who
6 subsequently closed
him out as a suspect did
7 to satisfy
themselves.
8
Q. Well,
take a look, if you would,
9 at page 273 of your
book.
10
MR. DIAMOND: For the record, do
11 we have the hard
cover?
12
MR. WOOD: Yeah, this is a
hard
13 cover.
14
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) 273 and this is
15 just in context apparently
on an incident
16 you're describing
that occurred on February
17 the 25th of 1998,
with Mayor Bob Greenlee.
18 Do you know Mayor
Greenlee?
19
MR. DIAMOND: Can you point
to
20 where you are, at the top of the page?
21
MR. WOOD: Just hang on a
second,
22 pay attention, you'll
get there.
23
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) In context do you
24 recall the February
incident with Mayor
25 Greenlee about Chris
Wolf?
62
1
A. I
don't recall the date being a
2 specific date in
February but I certainly
3 recall meeting with
Mr. Greenlee, yes, about
4 Chris Wolf.
5
Q. Look
at the top of page 273. If
6 you would follow with
me, quote, We need to
7 check this out, the
mayor snorted. We need
8 a thorough
investigation into this. End
9 quote. "I guess he wanted me to cower in
10 his presence. Greenlee trapped himself, not
11 me." Quote, We are thoroughly investigating
12 him, end quote,
"I replied. Even as we
13 spoke, Chris Wolf was
in an interview room
14 voluntarily giving
handwriting, hair and DNA
15 samples and a
statement."
16 Have you
followed me?
17
A. I have
followed you.
18
Q. Have I
read that correctly?
19
A. Yes.
20
Q. So it
was your understanding that
21 the Boulder Police
Department was thoroughly
22 investigating Chris
Wolf, true?
23
A. Yes,
even contemporaneous with my
24 exchange with the
mayor on that particular
25 day.
63
1
Q. And
the investigation of Mr. Wolf
2 had started back in
January of 1997; is that
3 right?
4
A. Yes.
5
Q. How did
-- how did Chris Wolf
6 first become a
suspect in the JonBenet Ramsey
7 murder investigation,
Mr. Thomas?
8
A.
Through a citizen informant.
9
Q. And
who was that citizen
10 informant?
11
A. Jackie
Dilson.
12
Q. Tell
me your recollection of what
13 Jackie Dilson did
that resulted in Mr. Wolf
14 becoming a suspect in
the Ramsey murder
15 investigation.
16
A. I
participated in a meeting with
17 Jackie Dilson in
which she offered an account
18 with some dubious
issues on the front end.
19 She offered a piece
of physical evidence that
20 was exculpatory to
Mr. Wolf. There were
21 questions surrounding
her stability and mental
22 condition. Nonetheless, we investigated
23 Mr. Wolf over a
period of approximately 12 to
24 15 months, during
which time Ms. Wolf's --
25
MR. DIAMOND: Ms. Wolf?
64
1
A. I'm
sorry, Ms. Dilson's accounts
2 grew increasingly suspicious by way of
making
3 admissions and
information known to us in a
4 less than timely
fashion.
5
And then continuing to supply
6 information that became
increasingly void of
7 credibility,
including linking Access Graphics
8 and Lockheed Martin
in some conspiracy
9 involving arms sales
to "Third World countries
10 and Chris Wolf
planting by way of this
11 conspiracy somehow a
stun gun video inside
12 the Ramsey home.
13
Additionally, she tried to
14 implicate Mr. Wolf in
other crimes, including
15 another homicide, and
another individual or
16 team of detectives
were assigned to attempt a
17 different tact with
Mr. Wolf and were
18 successful in gaining
his compliance and
19 cooperation, and I
was made aware that they
20 subsequently
internally cleared him from
21 involvement in the
Ramsey matter.
22
MR. DIAMOND: Before you ask
him
23 the next question,
may I have a minute with
24 the witness?
25
MR. WOOD: If we note on the
65
1 record the time and
it's not charged against
2 us.
3
VIDEO
TECHNICIAN: The time is
4 10:17. We're going off the record.
5
MR. WOOD: We don't have to
go
6 off the record.
7
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Oh, never
mind.
8 We're still on the record.
9
MR. DIAMOND: Go ahead.
10
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Had you completed
11 your answer?
12
A. Yes.
13
Q. Now,
if I am hearing you, you
14 gave me kind of a
general overview of the
15 Chris Wolf matter as
pertains to Jackie
16 Dilson that
apparently she came to you as a
17 citizen informant,
the Boulder Police
18 Department, provided
information and then as
19 that information was
investigated, apparently
20 you, perhaps others,
felt that it was not
21 necessarily credible
and had suspicions about
22 it as it pertains to
Jackie Dilson, am I
23 right?
24
A. If
you're asking me were there
25 questions about
Jackie Dilson's credibility,
66
1 yes.
2
Q. But
you didn't know that the first
3 day you met her, I
mean you accepted on face
4 value the information
and you followed up on
5 it to investigate Mr.
Wolf, true?
6
A. No,
no, other detectives and
7 myself who were
present at that immediately
8 had serious questions
about her stability and
9 credibility.
10
Q. But
not so much so that you did
11 not follow up on it,
true?
12
A. We
followed up on dozens of such
13 suspects who came to
us by way of citizen
14 information.
15
Q. We
know it is true that Chris
16 Wolf was a Boulder
Police Department suspect
17 in the JonBenet
Ramsey investigation, right?
18
A. You
used the word suspect. That
19 was always an issue
inside the police
20 department who would and wouldn't be on
this
21 proverbial suspect
list. But as we sit here
22 today, certainly he,
among many others, I
23 considered a suspect
in the case.
24
Q. And you
later learned that the
25 district attorney's
office viewed Mr. Wolf as
67
1 a suspect, true?
2
A. True
in that, after the fact, I
3 came to learn that
they were conducting some
4 investigation that I
had been previously
5 unaware of.
6
Q. It is
clear from your involvement
7 that Mr. Wolf became a
suspect in the
8 JonBenet Ramsey
murder investigation as a
9 result of Jackie
Dilson, true?
10
A. Yes.
11
Q.
Several months later, it was
12 several months after
January of 1997 before
13 any information was
provided by the Ramsey --
14 John and Patsy
Ramsey's investigators to law
15 enforcement about Mr.
Wolf; is that true?
16
A. I'm
sorry, give me that time line
17 again, Mr. Wood.
18
Q. Yeah,
several -- if this helps any
19 at all as I
understand it, and you may tell
20 me you don't know or
you may agree with me,
21 Steve Ainsworth
started looking into Chris
22 Wolf in August of
1997. Does that coincide
23 with your
recollection?
24
A. No.
25
Q. When
do you think Steve Ainsworth
68
1 began to look at him?
2
A. June
of 1997.
3
Q. Okay. Subsequent to that, the
4 Ramseys'
investigators began to provide some
5 information to the district attorney's
office
6 about Mr. Wolf; is
that your understanding?
7
A. I have
no personal knowledge of
8 what the Ramsey
investigators were or weren't
9 doing.
10
Q. They
didn't provide you with any
11 information about Mr.
Wolf, did they?
12
A. Me
personally, no, not that I'm
13 aware of.
14
Q. Are
you aware of any information
15 that the Ramsey
investigators provided to the
16 Boulder Police
Department about Mr. Wolf?
17
A. I
can't speak for others, but
18 certainly none came
to me directly.
19 Q. You were operating
from the
20 standpoint that you
were following up on Ms.
21 Dilson's information
and developing and
22 investigating that
information and any leads
23 or other areas that
your investigation might
24 take you with respect
to Chris Wolf, true?
25
A. Mr.
Wolf, if I understand it
69
1 correctly, if you're
asking me if I was
2 following up on
information that Dilson
3 was --
4
Q. Mr.
Wood. That's okay.
5
A. I'm
sorry, Mr. Wood, that
6 Ms. Dilson was
providing regarding Chris Wolf,
7 yes, I was doing
that.
8
Q. You
said when she first came to
9 you she provided you
with a piece of
10 exculpatory
evidence. What was that?
11
A. From a
pillow case, Ms. Dilson
12 produced a length of
rope that was
13 immediately visually
inconsistent to the
14 persons present with
the murder ligature in
15 the homicide case.
16 Q. Well, now how is that exculpatory.
17 You're saying it
wouldn't be incriminating but
18 how does it as a
piece of evidence prove to
19 be exculpatory of Mr.
Wolf?
20
A. It may
be a choice of words on my
21 behalf but she did
not produce us -- or
22 produce any physical
evidence that
23 incriminated
him. There was nothing that she
24 produced that evening
by way of physical
25 evidence that
included him in the running, so
70
1 to speak.
2
Q. That
would be a better way of
3 phrasing it than to
say it was exculpatory,
4 wouldn't you agree?
5
A. I
won't quibble with you on that,
6 Mr. Wood.
7
Q. I
don't want you to quibble with
8 me. I want you to tell me whether it's a
9 more accurate
statement that the evidence that
10 she presented to you
with respect to the rope
11 did not incriminate
Mr. Wolf, but nor did it
12 prove to be itself
exculpatory of Mr. Wolf,
13 is that accurate?
14
A. Okay. True, sure.
15
Q. Okay. Tell me about the first
16 time you had a chance
to meet Mr. Wolf, what
17 you recall about
that.
18
A. On a
particular date in January of
19 1997, shortly after
Dilson's information, we
20 had Mr. Wolf brought
into the police
21 department in which
we had a rather
22 unpleasant exchange
and little or no
23 information was
obtained from him at that
24 time.
25
Q. Was
his conduct at that time what
71
1 you would characterize as suspicious?
2
A.
Everything depends on context but
3 he was not, certainly
not cooperative.
4
Q. Well,
didn't you ask him to write
5 certain words that
were from the ransom note
6 found in the Ramsey
house?
7
A. Yes.
8
Q. And
didn't he refuse to do so?
9
A. Yes.
10
Q. That
certainly was not consistent
11 with innocence, was
it?
12
A.
Sometimes I've found that a lack
13 of cooperation like
that may not be any more
14 indicative of guilt
than a cooperative person
15 who turns out to be
guilty.
16
Q. So
someone's refusal to cooperate
17 with you by either
agreeing to an interview
18 or submitting to a
handwriting exemplar is
19 not viewed by you
necessarily as being
20
indicative of guilt, true?
21
A. It's
not evidence.
22
Q. Well,
you said, I believe, that
23 you have found that a
lack of cooperation
24 like that may not be
any more indicative of
25 guilt than a
cooperative person who turns out
72
1 to be guilty; is that
right?
2
A. Yeah,
in response to your
3
question.
4
Q. So let
me put it in the terms
5 that you put it. It is not evidence of
6 guilt by simply
refusing to cooperate with
7 the police by either
agreeing to an interview
8 or submitting to a
handwriting exemplar, true?
9
A. Are
you reading back to me my
10 statement or your
question?
11
Q. I'm
asking you a question. Don't
12 worry about what I'm
reading; I'm asking you
13 a question.
14
A. Repeat
the question for me,
15 please.
16
Q. It is
not evidence of guilt on
17 the part of someone
who simply refuses to
18 cooperate with the
police by either agreeing
19 to an interview or
submitting to a
20 handwriting exemplar,
true?
21
MR. DIAMOND: If that's what
he
22 said that doesn't
make sense.
23
A. I have
lost you one more time,
24 Mr. Wood.
25
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) You don't
73
1 understand the
question?
2
A. No.
3
Q. An
individual who is not
4 cooperative and does
not agree to a police
5 interview or agree to
a police request to
6 provide a handwriting
exemplar, that refusal
7 to cooperate is not
evidence of that
8 individual's guilt,
true?
9
A. I
would agree with that.
10
Q. Thank
you.
11
A. In
that context.
12
Q. In
what context?
13
A. We're
talking about Mr. Wolf here.
14
Q. Well,
I was talking about any
15 individual.
16
A. Then
repeat the question to me,
17 please.
18
Q. An
individual who is not
19 cooperative and does
not agree to a police
20 interview or agree to
a police request to
21 provide a handwriting
exemplar, that
22 individual's refusal
to cooperate is not
23 itself evidence of
that individual's guilt,
24 true?
25
A. That
is not evidence you can take
74
1 to a judge in an
affidavit, certainly not.
2
Q. Not
evidence of guilt?
3
A. Not
evidence in a courtroom, as I
4 understand it.
5
Q. Okay. The -- there is the use of
6 the word hobbled, do
you know what that
7 means?
8
A. In the
context of police work?
9
Q. Yes.
10
A. Yes,
sir.
11 Q. What does that mean
to hobble
12 somebody?
13
A. When
you have a violent or a
14 physically resistive
or combative individual
15 or suspect who you
cannot otherwise control,
16 the hobbling procedure, as I understand
it,
17 beyond handcuffs
behind the back include
18 restraining the
ankles and legs through the
19 use of what is called
a hobble.
20
Q. When you
first met Chris Wolf and
21 had this incident you
have generally described
22 for us, did you have
to hobble him?
23
A. I
think I was involved in that
24 personally. He was hobbled before he was
25 transported to jail.
75
1
Q. Who
helped you hobble him?
2
A. There
were other officers present
3 and I don't know that -- I can't speak for
4 Gosage but if I
participated, and I may very
5 well have, there were
other people present,
6 including I think a
Detective Whiten, a
7 traffic sergeant,
Detective Chromiak, maybe
8 some uniform people.
9
Q. Why
did you all have to hobble
10 him?
11
A.
Because he was physically
12 uncooperative and
resistive.
13 Q. How did you hobble
him? In other
14 words, you said it is
always putting
15 handcuffs behind the
back and restraining the
16 ankles and legs. Is that the standard
17 technique?
18
A. Yes,
that's my --
19
Q. One
way to do it?
20
A. --
that's my recollection of how
21 he was hobbled that
day.
22
Q. Would
he let you take a picture
23 of him?
24
A. No.
25
Q. Did
you get any information from
76
1 him in terms of being
able to get answers to
2 any questions?
3
A. As was
the case with most of the
4 interviews, I'm sure
there's a transcription
5 that will bear it
out, but I don't recall,
6 as we sit here today,
what information we may
7 have gotten from him
in that interview room
8 that particular day.
9
Q. Do you
know if you got any?
10
A. As I
sit here now, I don't know
11 that we got any
information from him that
12 day, maybe beyond the
name, rank, serial
13 number type of
personal information.
14
Q. Do you
know how it came to be
15 that he was stopped
by the Boulder Police
16 Department and
brought to the office?
17
A. I do.
18
Q. Tell
me about that.
19
A. The
confidential informant in this
20 case --
21
Q. That's
Ms. Dilson?
22
A. Ms.
Dilson.
23
Q. Okay.
24
A. Wanted
to remain confidential as
25 she had some
concerns. And in attempting to
77
1 maintain her CI
status, we used a ruse with
2 some information that
she had provided us
3 about Mr. Wolf's
driving record and had him
4 stopped and picked up
legally on that basis.
5
Q. Why
did you want him to provide
6 you with a
handwriting exemplar from the
7 Ramsey ransom note?
8
A.
Because when information came into
9 the Boulder Police Department suggesting as in
10 this case as detailed
as Jackie Dilson made
11 it appear, someone's
possible involvement in
12 this homicide, we had
to have some sort of
13 initial screening
process that was done on
14 scores of people
where you try to obtain
15 non-testimonial
physical evidence to see if
16 there was anything
linking a particular
17 individual to the
ransom note or the crime,
18 as well as a
preliminary interview and/or
19 alibi confirmation.
20
Q. You
didn't on -- in January you
21 did not get a
preliminary interview with
22 Chris Wolf, right,
tried but failed?
23
A. That's
right.
24
Q. Didn't
get a handwriting exemplar,
25 right?
78
1 A. That's right.
2
Q. Didn't
get any non testimony --
3 testimonial physical
evidence from him, did
4 you?
5
A. No,
sir.
6
Q. He
really, short of not
7 cooperating and becoming violent
sufficiently
8 that he had to be
hobbled, you really weren't
9 able to conduct any
type of an initial
10 screening process on
Chris Wolf in January of
11 1997, true?
12
A. True.
13
Q. And
then it was 1998, February of
14 1998, when you were
finally able to get him
15 to provide
non-testimonial evidence?
16
A. As I
said earlier, I'm not real
17 sure of the date or
it being February but
18 I'll --
19
Q. Take a
look at your book; it may
20 be helpful in
that. 271, the bottom of the
21 page. "On February 25th the mayor chewed
me
22 out." Does that help you?
23
A. Sure.
24
Q. Okay.
25
A. I --
79
1
Q. So in
February of 1998, that's
2 when the Boulder
Police Department first
3 obtained
non-testimonial evidence from Chris
4 Wolf, hair sample,
DNA sample, and handwriting
5 exemplar, right?
6
A. To my
knowledge, yes.
7
Q. What
was his alibi?
8
A. Well,
as I mentioned earlier very
9 briefly, after this
difficult encounter with
10 Mr. Wolf by Detective Gosage and myself, it
11 was determined at
some level to attempt a
12 different tact at
gaining his cooperation.
13 And so they put
Detective Weinheimer, possibly
14 others, on to that
lead and they took it
15 from there. And I don't know, I don't have
16 any personal
knowledge of how they wound up
17 coming to the
determination that he was
18 cleared other than
letting the others in the
19 investigative team
know that he had been
20 sufficiently cleared.
21
Q. You
don't know on what basis?
22
A. I
don't.
23
Q. You
don't know what Chris Wolf's
24 alibi was?
25
A. I do
not.
80
1
Q. Chris
Wolf has indicated to us
2 that he was never
asked to take a polygraph
3 exam. Do you have any factual information to
4 dispute that?
5
A. I
don't have any knowledge of
6 that.
7
Q. If
Jackie Dilson said Chris Wolf
8 lived
with her and that I believe she woke
9 on the morning of the
26th of December and
10 he was coming out of
the shower and that his
11 clothes were dirty,
do you recall that being
12 information provided by Ms. Dilson?
13
A. Yes.
14
Q. If
that were his only alibi, that
15 is to say, well, I
was at home with Jackie
16 Dilson who I lived
with at the time and
17 Jackie Dilson who he lived with at the
time
18 came to the police
with suspicions that he
19 might have been
involved in the murder,
20 wouldn't you ask Mr.
Wolf to, as you say,
21 sit down on the box,
get on the box and take
22 a polygraph exam to
see how he did on that
23 alibi?
24
A.
Certainly. There are many
people
25 in this case I would
have liked to have
81
1 steered toward the
box.
2
Q. I'm
asking you about Mr. Wolf.
3 Wouldn't that be
standard procedure with an
4 alibi that is related
only to being with the
5 person who thinks
that you may have been
6 involved in the
murder that you would say,
7 well, Mr. Wolf, if
that's your alibi that you
8 weren't out that
night let's put it -- put
9 you on a polygraph
exam and see what you
10 say; wouldn't that be
standard procedure?
11
A.
Certainly in some departments but
12 it had been my
experience that the Boulder
13 Police Department had
never embraced and had
14 no policy, that I'm
aware of, in place
15 regarding polygraphy.
16
Q. So
there was no standard practice
17 in the Boulder Police
Department about when
18 to seek a polygraph
examination from a
19 suspect?
20
A. For
example, in other departments
21 who have in-house
polygraphers.
22
Q. Well,
I'm asking you about the
23 Boulder Police
Department?
24
A. I'm
trying to get to that.
25
Q. Let's
get to that for me, if you
82
1 would, please.
2
MR. DIAMOND: Let him
finish.
3
A.
Regarding the Boulder Police
4 Department, there was
no in-house polygrapher
5 and it didn't appear
to me that there was
6 any sort of a policy
in place, although I
7 personally favored
the use of polygraphs in
8 some cases. In which to -- and how it was
9 necessarily applied,
we certainly were able to
10 polygraph some other
potential suspects in
11 this case but I don't
know that Mr. Wolf
12 ever was.
13
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) You don't have any
14 basis to dispute his
statement that he was
15 never asked to take a
polygraph, do you?
16
A. No.
17
Q. And do
you -- are you aware of
18 any efforts by the
Boulder Police Department
19 to ever obtain Mr.
Wolf's computer and the
20 hard drive from his
computer to have it
21 analyzed as part of
its thorough
22 investigation?
23
A. If I
recall correctly, Jackie
24 Dilson early in this
investigation of
25 Mr. Wolf had
volunteered to me that she would
83
1 supply me with items
belonging to Mr. Wolf,
2 bed sheets, underwear,
writings, et cetera,
3 and I explained to
her that she could not
4 act as an agent on
behalf of law enforcement.
5 And she may have
volunteered the computer
6 equipment you
mentioned.
7 Q. But you didn't accept
her offer?
8
A. I
couldn't.
9
Q.
Because you thought it would raise
10 questions of chain of
custody and
11 admissibility?
12 A. Not because I thought so. Because
13 that, if my
understanding is correct and I
14 think the legal
advisor and even Hofstrom,
15 you can't have a
private citizen act as an
16 agent on your behalf
to circumvent a search
17 warrant.
18
Q. Well,
you couldn't -- you could
19 test the material and
gain potentially
20 valuable information
even if that information
21 might not be
admissible in court, couldn't
22 you, sir?
23
A. I
wasn't trained that way in the
24 least. And I know from dope work, you can't
25 use a citizen to act
as your agent.
84
1
Q. So if
Jackie Dilson walks in and
2 says here is a piece
of evidence, here is a
3 rope --
4
A. Sir.
5 Q. -- did you tell her, did you say
6 wait a minute, I
can't take that rope from
7 you, Ms. Dilson?
8
A. Very
different.
9
Q. How is
that different --
10 A. Here we --
11
Q. -- her
offering to bring you
12 articles of clothing
or his computer?
13
A. It's
my understanding, and here is
14 the difference, is
she volunteered evidence on
15 the front end without
any prior knowledge on
16 our behalf, which is
acceptable, according to
17 our in-house legal
advisor.
18
But when an individual makes it
19 known to you as a
detective that they would
20 go out and seek to
gather evidence on your
21 behalf and bring that
to you for testing,
22 that's entirely
inappropriate.
23
Q. Did
you have after Mr. -- based
24 on Ms. Dilson's
statements to you and
25 Mr. Wolf's actions
when you had him brought
85
1 in under the ruse,
did you have probable
2 cause at that time in
your view to obtain a
3 search warrant of Ms.
Dilson's property to
4 obtain items of
evidence to be analyzed?
5
A. As a
matter of fact, I went to
6 Mr. Hofstrom, at the
time the chief trial
7 deputy in the DA's
office, and this was just
8 one of scores of
examples in which we needed
9 the power of the DA's
office either through
10 warrant or preferably
grand jury subpoena to
11 secure evidence.
12
And during the course of, it's
13 been my experience,
during the course of '97
14 and '98 received
certainly no grand jury, but
15 very little support
from Mr. Hofstrom in the
16 DA's office and in
this case made my
17 Detective Sergeant
Wickman aware of our
18 inability based
mostly on the DA's office
19 reluctance to move
forward further
20 investigating Wolf at
that time.
21
Q. Thank
you. My question was, did
22 you have in your mind
probable cause
23 sufficient to obtain
a search warrant of Ms.
24 Dilson's residence to obtain items of
evidence
25 based on the
information she had provided to
86
1 you and the conduct
of Mr. Wolf when you had
2 him in the office
under the ruse?
3
MR. DIAMOND: Did he
conclude then
4 or are you asking him
to look now in
5 hindsight?
6
MR. WOOD: I think my
question is
7 extremely clear.
8
MR. DIAMOND: Reread it,
please.
9
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) I would be glad to
10 do it. My question was, did you have in
11 your mind probable cause
sufficent to obtain
12 a search warrant of
Ms. Dilson's residence to
13 obtain items of
evidence based on the
14 information she had
provided to the department
15 and the conduct of
Mr. Wolf when you had him
16 in the police
department under the ruse. Did
17 you think as a police
officer that you had
18 probable cause to get
a warrant to get these
19 items and property?
20 A. I understand the
question,
21 Mr. Wood.
22
Q. Okay. Thank you. What is the
23 answer?
24
A. The
answer is one of the items
25 that I or anyone else
would have relied on
87
1 to put within the
four corners of a warrant
2 affidavit did not
include any physical
3 evidence and would
have been based almost
4 soley on the
information provided by an
5 unreliable, mentally
unstable informant. And
6 I would have had -- I
don't know that I
7 would have put forth
my name on a search
8 warrant affidavit and taken it to a judge
9 based solely on
Jackie Dilson's information.
10
Q. I
didn't ask you that. I asked
11 you based on Jackie
Dilson's information and
12 Mr. Wolf's conduct
when you had him in the
13 department under the
ruse?
14
A. Well,
I'm not making my answer
15 clear obviously to
you.
16
Q. I
don't think you are but maybe
17 I'm not understanding
it.
18
A. No. I'm saying I did not have
19 sufficient facts and
circumstances to put in
20 a warrant affidavit.
21
Q. When
did you conclude that Jackie
22 Dilson was unreliable
and mentally unstable?
23 Did you conclude that
on the first meeting
24 with her?
25
A. Yes,
Mr. Wood. And I suggest you
88
1 read that transcript
and the comments of the
2 other detectives
walking out of the office
3 that night. It was -- she had, God bless
4 her, mental health
problems. She's on
5 medication. She's an alcoholic and just was
6 not deemed terribly
reliable. But
7 nonetheless, we chose
to move forward with
8 that information and
look at Mr. Wolf.
9
Q. Let me
make sure I understand how
10 the Boulder Police
Department was working now.
11 You were involved at
this time specifically
12 with Chris Wolf,
right?
13
A. Yes.
14 Q. So if I understand you
--
15
MR. DIAMOND: Can he answer
the
16 question?
17
A. At
what time?
18
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) You said yes, at
19 this time in January
of 1997 so here is what
20 I understand. You, Mr. Thomas, as a
21 detective of the
Boulder Police Department
22 took an individual
that you decided in one
23 meeting was on
medication, was an alcoholic,
24 was not reliable, had
mental problems, was
25 mentally unstable,
and you set up a ruse to
89
1 have a man brought
into the Boulder Police
2 Department to try to
get him to give you a
3 handwriting exemplar
of the Ramsey note, to
4 try to get his
photograph, and then you
5 hobbled this man
based on an informant that
6 you tell me today was an alcoholic,
mentally
7 unstable and
unreliable; is that the way you
8 did business with Mr.
Wolf?
9
A. She
provided sufficient details
10 that warranted looking
further at Mr. Wolf.
11
Q. So, I
mean, you felt like you
12 then did have a
legitimate basis to
13 investigate Mr. Wolf
as a suspect in the
14 case, even though you
had some concerns about
15 Ms. Dilson's
reliability and mental status; is
16 that a fair
statement?
17
A. As I
just said, there -- she
18 provided some
sufficient details to look
19 further at Mr. Wolf in
this case.
20
Q. So you
felt like, then, that you
21 did have a legitimate
basis to investigate
22 Mr. Wolf as a suspect
in the case even
23 though you had some
concerns about
24 Ms. Dilson's reliability and mental status; is
25 that a fair
statement?
90
1
A. Yes.
2
Q. Thank
you. Back when you all had
3 the June 1998
presentation that is referred
4 to -- is that
referred to as the VIP
5 presentation?
6
A. We can
refer to it as that.
7
Q. Did
you ever hear it referred to
8 as that when you had
the VIPs there?
9
A. I
think so.
10
Q. Let's
refer to it as the June
11 1998 VIP presentation
so we know what we're
12 talking about. Did, in fact, the detectives
13 during that
presentation present a long list
14 of suspects who had
been considered and
15 dropped, including
Randy Simons, Kevin
16 Rayburn, Bud
Henderson, Linda Hoffman-Pugh,
17 Joe Barnhill and
Chris Wolf?
18
A. I
would certainly have to review
19 any notes and reports
from the police files
20 on that, but that's
not inconsistent with my
21 recollection.
22
Q. You
recall then the presentation
23 including a statement
that Chris Wolf was a
24 suspect who had been
eliminated?
25
A. No,
that's not what I'm saying.
91
1 What I am saying is I
don't recall that --
2 there was a lot of
information exchanged over
3 two days at this VIP
presentation. It very
4 well may have been
said but you asked me
5 right now, I don't
have that specific
6 recollection about
that particular individual.
7
Q. Do you
know whether Chris Wolf's
8 DNA was ever tested?
9
A. I have
no personal knowledge of
10 that.
11
Q. Was
Chris Wolf one of the 73
12 individuals, that
number that you referenced
13 with respect to your
comments about 73
14 suspects having their
handwriting analyzed, is
15 he one of the 73?
16
A. I
don't know.
17
Q. Well,
how did you come up with
18 the number 73?
19
A. From
Detective Trujillo's briefing
20 to other detectives
about CBI's examinations.
21
Q. Do you
know whether -- do you
22 know as a fact
firsthand or from what you've
23 heard whether Chris
Wolf's handwriting was
24 ever analyzed by the
Boulder Police
25 Department?
92
1
A. As I
said previously, I don't know
2 the details of
Detective Weinheimer's
3 subsequent
investigation of Chris Wolf.
4
Q. Is the
answer no, you don't know?
5
A. The
answer to what?
6
Q. To my
question.
7
A. What
is the question, sir?
8
Q. Listen
carefully. From -- my
9 question was, do you
know as a fact,
10 firsthand or from
what you heard, whether
11 Chris Wolf's handwriting was ever analyzed by
12 the Boulder Police
Department, yes or no?
13
A. I
don't know that.
14
Q. Do you
know?
15
A. I
don't know that.
16 Q. Okay. Do you know whether
17 Mr. Wolf, I guess you
can tell me this is
18 pretty easy, maybe
you'll understand this one.
19 Clearly you don't
know whether he was -- his
20 handwriting eliminated
him as the author of
21 the note, do you?
22
A. As I
have said, I don't know the
23 details of Detective
Weinheimer's investigation
24 but took Detective
Weinheimer's statement that
25 Chris Wolf was
cleared at face value.
93
1
Q.
Knowing what you know about how
2 the Boulder Police
Department, what would one
3 use to
clear someone, what could possibly
4 clear an individual
here? One would be a
5 solid alibi, right?
6
A. Yes,
sir.
7
Q.
Verified, right?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9
Q. What
else?
10
A.
Handwriting, certainly.
11
Q.
Handwriting. That
eliminated John
12 Ramsey as the author
of the ransom note?
13
A. Is that
a question?
14
Q. Yes.
15
A. What
is your question?
16
Q. You
said handwriting and I said
17 handwriting, that
eliminated John Ramsey as
18 the author of the ransom
note, true?
19
A. That's
my understanding.
20
Q. All
right. What else besides
21 alibi and
handwriting?
22
A. I
don't know what was being done
23 with it on the back
end, but certainly a
24 polygraph
examination.
25
Q. So you
would eliminate based
94
1 solely on a
polygraph?
2 A. No.
3
Q. All
right. You would take it
4 into consideration?
5
MR. DIAMOND: You have to
answer
6 audibly.
7
A. We
would take our polygraph
8 examinations into
consideration, yes, sir.
9
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) All of your
10 polygraph
examinations were done by the FBI,
11 weren't they?
12
A. I
believe so.
13 Q. You didn't have
anybody on the
14 Boulder Police
Department that was trained in
15 polygraph
examinations, did you?
16
A. I
don't know if anybody received
17 polygraph training
but we did not have an
18 in-house polygrapher.
19
Q. Okay. So we've got alibi,
20 handwriting,
polygraph, what else?
21
MR. DIAMOND: Polygraph
coupled
22 with other things he
said.
23
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Well, yeah,
24 polygraph alone would
not be sufficient to
25 clear someone, would
it?
95
1
A. Not
necessarily, no.
2
Q. Right. So now what else could be
3 utilized, as you
understood this
4 investigation, to
clear a suspect?
5
A.
Witnesses.
6 Q. Witnesses as to
alibi?
7
A. Yes,
certainly that.
8
Q.
Witnesses as to what else?
9
A. Well,
I think you're hitting the
10 highlights. Beyond that, I don't know how
11 specifically those
determinations beyond that,
12 the obvious, people
were being cleared.
13
Q. You're
familiar with the use of
14 the term forensics,
aren't you?
15 A. I am.
16
Q. What
would be forensic evidence
17 that could clear
someone in the JonBenet
18 Ramsey investigation?
19
A.
Handwriting.
20
Q.
Anything else?
21
MR. DIAMOND: You're saying
22 standing by itself?
23
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Standing by itself,
24 if I were going to
say, well, John Doe has
25 been eliminated as a
suspect in the JonBenet
96
1 Ramsey investigation
based on forensic
2 evidence, what is the
only forensic evidence
3 that you were aware of
that could have itself
4 eliminated someone
from being involved?
5
A.
Besides the handwriting?
6
Q. I want
the answer. If it's
7 handwriting, if there
was anything else, let
8 me know that.
9
A. Well,
I know the big controversy
10 -- thank you very
much -- was whether or not
11 DNA was clearing
people in this case.
12
Q. And
ultimately it was not, was it?
13
A. I
don't know. I certainly don't
14 hold myself out as a
DNA expert.
15
Q. No,
but I mean, you knew the
16 approach the
investigation was taking from the
17 time of your involvement through August of
18 '98 and the DNA
either quite simply either
19 eliminated everybody
or it eliminated nobody
20 if it wasn't a match,
true?
21
A. There
was a huge controversy about
22 the DNA.
23
Q. So it
was not in and of itself
24 viewed as a forensic piece of evidence that
25 eliminated anyone,
was it?
97
1
A.
Correct.
2
Q. Other
than handwriting, what else
3 was the basis for a
forensic evidence that
4 would eliminate
someone as a suspect in the
5 Ramsey case?
6
A. May I
have just a moment?
7
Q. Sure.
8
(Discussion off the record between
9 the deponent and Mr.
Diamond.)
10
A. Mr. Wood,
unless I'm missing
11 something entirely
obvious, no, the
12 handwriting, the
ransom note, et cetera, was
13 the sort of
cornerstone piece of evidence in
14 this case and I think
that's how most people
15 were being cleared.
16
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Well, when you say
17 most people were
being cleared, had the
18 Boulder Police
Department concluded that the
19 murderer and the
author of the note were one
20 and the same, that is
to say, had the
21 Boulder Police
Department concluded that there
22 could not have been
involvement by more than
23 one person?
24 A. I think there was some division on
25 that point.
98
1
Q.
Because actually the handwriting,
2 only if eliminated
under analysis, only really
3 eliminates an
individual as the author of the
4 note but does not in
and of itself eliminate
5 the person from
involvement in the crime,
6 true?
7
A. I think the collective consensus
8 was that certainly it
wasn't a leap the
9 author of the note
was involved in the crime.
10
Q. I
don't think that would be a
11 leap. But the question is elimination as the
12 author of the note
did not in and of itself
13 eliminate one from
involvement in the crime,
14 true?
15
A. By way
of a conspiracy that you're
16 suggesting that --
17
Q. I'm
just suggesting straight up,
18 sir, handwriting
analysis that eliminates you
19 as the author of the
note does not in and of
20 itself eliminate you
from involvement in the
21 crime,
true?
22
A. One
could argue that, yes, sir.
23
Q. Fiber
evidence was not a forensic
24 test that was used to
eliminate in and of
25 itself, was it?
99
1
A. As far
as elimination of suspects,
2 I don't have
firsthand knowledge of the fiber
3 evidence testing and
that wasn't an assignment
4 I had
in this case. But no, I don't
believe
5 that fiber evidence
in and of itself was any
6 sort of eliminator.
7
Q. Do you
know whether any fiber
8 tests were ever
conducted on non-testimonial
9 evidence voluntarily
provided by Chris Wolf,
10 any fibers ever
tested to your knowledge?
11
A. I got
the impression that it was.
12
Q. Where
did you get that impression?
13
A. From
Jackie Dilson after she
14 turned over to
Investigator Ainsworth and/or
15 Smit in June of '97
what she told me were, I
16 think, bed linens, a
leather jacket, a diary,
17 maybe underwear, and
she told me that she had
18 been told they were
going to submit that for
19 testing.
20
Q. Do you
know whether it was tested?
21
A. I do
not.
22 Q. Do you -- you
certainly have no
23 idea of what any of
the results would have
24 been if tested, true?
25
A.
Correct.
100
1
Q. Do you
know how many handwriting
2 exemplars Mr. Wolf
gave?
3
A. No, as
I said before I don't know
4 the breadth or depth
or extent of Mr. --
5 Detective
Weinheimer's investigation into
6 Mr. Wolf.
7
Q. What
was the standard practice in
8 terms of when you
were obtaining handwriting
9 exemplars from
suspects for analysis, how many
10 exemplars were standardly obtained?
11
A. It's
my recollection that
12 initially, and I can
only speak to what
13 myself and Gosage
were doing routinely, we
14 were asking for the
voluntary completion of
15 what is known as a
London letter, as well as
16 a second sheet
including words or phrases
17 from the ransom note
and that initial screen
18 was what I'm assuming
after booked into
19 evidence was
eventually going to CBI for
20 analysis to see if
there was any reason to
21 further investigate
an individual.
22
Q. Your
understanding is there were
23 73 suspects whose
handwriting was analyzed?
24
A. At the
time of the VIP
25 presentation, at the
time I left, yes --
101
1
Q. June
of 1998?
2
A. --
that was the number.
3
Q. And of
those 73, how many of
4 those individuals
were eliminated as the
5 author of the note
based on the handwriting
6 analysis itself?
7
A. And
I'm not a handwriting expert,
8 but under entire
elimination, I don't know.
9
Q. I
don't want to know about entire
10 elimination unless
you're using that in a
11 phrase, maybe you
are. I want to -- you've
12 got 73 people whose
handwriting was tested,
13 and you've either got
a result from CBI that
14 says we've got a
match, right, or you've got
15 a result from CBI that says basically
16 inconclusive or
you've got a result from CBI
17 that says
elimination, right?
18
A. No, I
don't think it's that
19 simple.
20 Q. Well, I'm not trying to make it
21 more complicated than
that. But maybe you
22 know more about it
and if you do, then, that
23 would be helpful for
me to learn. I want to
24 know, though, from
the bottom line that we
25 can agree that it is
simple when it comes to
102
1 the question of
elimination, that's simple
2 because that's one of
the categories,
3 elimination --
4
A. Right.
5
Q. --
right?
6
A. Right.
7
Q. And
how many of the 73 were
8 eliminated as the
author of the note based on
9 the handwriting
examples or exemplars?
10
A. I
don't know.
11
Q. Not
many, true?
12
A. I know
that the majority fell into
13 the no evidence to
indicate category.
14
Q. But
they couldn't go to
15 elimination, could
they?
16
A. Again,
I don't know.
17
Q. Didn't
you talk with the
18 handwriting expert,
sir?
19
A. Are we
talking about the CBI
20 expert?
21
Q. Any of
them. There were four
22 with respect to Patsy
Ramsey, weren't there?
23
A. Yes.
24 Q. How many other of the 73 had four
25 different examiners
look at their handwriting?
103
1
A. I
don't know.
2 Q. Do you know of
any? Can you name
3 one?
4
A. I'm
trying to recall with those
5 three additional
examiners if other suspects'
6 historical writings
or exemplars were provided
7 to them. As I sit here today, I don't know.
8 But if any, the
number would be few.
9
Q. Do you
know whether the Boulder
10 Police Department
obtained historical writings
11 with respect to Chris
Wolf's handwriting?
12
A. I
don't know. I didn't get very
13 far with Mr. Wolf,
Mr. White -- or Mr. Wood,
14 I'm sorry.
15
Q. That's
okay. Fleet White's
16 handwriting was
tested?
17
A. I
believe so, yes.
18
Q. Was he
eliminated?
19
A. He
fell into a category that he
20 was no longer, if my
understanding is
21 correct, and this
wasn't my assignment, but
22 by way of detective
briefings, Mr. White was
23 not in the running,
if you will, by way of a
24 handwriting exemplar.
25
Q. My
question is not in the running.
104
1 My question is was he
eliminated as the
2 author of the note
based on a handwriting
3 analysis conducted by
the Boulder Police
4 Department or the
CBI?
5
A. I
don't know what the CBI expert
6 concluded as far as a
categorical elimination
7 of Mr. White.
8
Q. John
Ramsey was categorically
9
eliminated, wasn't he?
10
A. Again
I would liken it to
11 Mr. White. I simply learned that Mr. Ramsey
12 was not a candidate
based on his handwriting.
13
Q. You
don't know whether John Ramsey
14 was eliminated by the
examiner at CBI as an
15 author of the note
based on that and his --
16 the analysis of his
exemplars, you don't know
17 that as we sit here
today?
18 A. He may very well have
fallen into
19 that majority of no
evidence to indicate but
20 if you're telling me
that he fell into the
21 elimination category,
I won't dispute that
22 because we never had
any concerns after some
23 of these results that
he was the author of
24 the note.
25
Q. Well,
the question is not what I'm
105
1 suggesting to
you. Do you know? Do you
2 have any idea whether
his report from CBI
3 came back and said
John Ramsey has been
4 eliminated based on
the CBI analysis as the
5 author of the ransom
note? Do you know one
6 way or the other,
sir?
7
A. As to
what category he fell into?
8
Q.
Whether he was eliminated by the
9 CBI analysis is my question,
please, sir?
10
A. As to
the category he fell into,
11 including a category
of elimination, I don't
12 have personal
knowledge.
13
Q. Do you
have any knowledge,
14 secondary or otherwise?
15
A. As I
told you a minute ago,
16 Mr. Wood, it was my
understanding from our
17 briefings that he was
not a candidate as the
18 author of the
note. I don't know what else
19 I can -- how many
ways I can answer that
20 question for you.
21
Q. I just
want to know if you know
22 the results of the
CBI analysis of John
23 Ramsey's handwriting?
24
MR. DIAMOND: Any more
clearly
25 than he just told
you?
106
1
MR. WOOD: That's my
question.
2 Do you want to answer
for him? Because if
3 so --
4
MR. DIAMOND: I think you --
5
MR. WOOD: -- I would love
to
6 swear you in and
examine you under oath, but
7 I think it would be a waste of our time.
8
MR. DIAMOND: I think you're not
9 listening to the
answers. We're not --
10
MR. WOOD: Why don't you
worry
11 about your side of
the table and let me
12 worry about
mine. If I'm not understanding
13 him, that's my
fault. I mean, it's my walk
14 away without the
information, right? I think
15 I'm
understanding. I'm just not sure
I'm
16 getting a straight
answer. It seems to me
17 that this gentleman
should know, as he claims
18 to be one of the lead
detectives on the
19 case, whether John
Ramsey's CBI handwriting
20 analysis came back
elimination.
21
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) And you don't
22 know, do you?
23
A. As I
have told you, Mr. Wood, I
24 stand on my answer,
yeah, I know that he was
25 not -- that he was eliminated by way of
107
1 handwriting. But if you're asking me if the
2 CBI examiner reached
a conclusion of
3 elimination, I'm sitting here again
telling
4 you I don't have
personal knowledge of that.
5
Q. Let me
go that route because I
6 think I understand
you. Do you know how
7 many of the 73
individuals were eliminated by
8 way of handwriting?
9
A. By way
of falling into the
10 category of
elimination.
11
Q. That
were eliminated by way of
12 handwriting, your
words.
13
MR. DIAMOND: I think he
means by
14 the Boulder Police
Department.
15
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) I mean that were
16 eliminated by way of
handwriting, certainly by
17 the Boulder Police
Department. You're the
18 one that says 73?
19
A. Out of
those 73?
20
Q. Out of
those 73, I want to know
21 how many were
eliminated by way of
22 handwriting?
23
A. If
you're asking me how many of
24 those 73 fell into
the elimination category
25 based on question
document examiner
108
1 conclusions, is that
what you're asking me?
2
Q. I
think so.
3
A. Yeah.
4
Q. What
is the answer?
5
A. I
don't know.
6 Q. You don't have any
idea?
7
A. No. As I have previously said on
8 the record that
number is probably very few.
9 The majority of
those, as I have said, fell
10 into the no evidence
to indicate category.
11
Q. Did a
lot of them have
12 similarities?
13
A. Did a
lot of who?
14
Q. A lot
of the 73 people, did their
15 -- did their analysis
show similarities?
16
A. I
don't know, I'm not a
17 handwriting expert.
18
Q. Did
you review the reports on any
19 of the 73?
20
A. Have
you seen the -- if you've
21 seen the CBI reports,
that's not how they're
22 stated in a narrative
form like that. No, I
23 never saw anything
like that.
24
Q. Nor
does the CBI do handwriting
25 analysis and reach a
conclusion, for example,
109
1 that 24 of 26 letters
of the alphabet are
2 similar, they don't
do that, do they, sir?
3
A. Well,
according to Detective
4 Sergeant Wickman, he
came back and told us
5 that.
6
Q. But
you know that Mr. Ubowski has
7 in fact denied that
as being accurate?
8
A. No, I
don't know that.
9
Q. You
didn't see his statement with
10 respect to the fact
that he had never
11 concluded anything
about Patsy Ramsey in terms
12 of 24 of 26 letters
of the alphabet being
13 similar?
14
A. Well,
you can ask --
15
Q. I'm
asking you this question,
16 please.
17
A. I know
and I'm trying to answer
18 it for you.
19 Q. Please do.
20
A.
Wickman came back from CBI and
21 told that to John
Eller and he told that to
22 me and that was
Trujillo's account and other
23 detectives were told
that.
24
Q. You
didn't hear it from Ubowski?
25
A. No, I
didn't deal with Ubowski.
110
1
Q. You
didn't see it in writing from
2 Ubowski?
3
A. No.
4
Q. After
your book came out you
5 weren't aware that
Ubowski publicly stated
6 that he had never
concluded that Patsy Ramsey
7 was the author of the note and that he had
8 never concluded that
24 of the 26 letters of
9 the alphabet from her
writing were similar?
10
A. Well,
you had two questions.
11
Q. Are you
familiar with my question?
12
MR. DIAMOND: Will you let
him
13 answer the question,
please?
14
MR. WOOD: I will. I think I've
15 let him answer every
question so far.
16
MR. DIAMOND: You didn't. You
17 didn't.
18
MR. WOOD: Well, I'm
certainly
19 going to because I
want to get his answer to
20 every question. Let's let him do it. I'll
21 restate it.
22
MR. DIAMOND: I would like
the
23 reporter to reread
it.
24
MR. WOOD: I'll withdraw it
and
25 restate it.
111
1
MR. DIAMOND: All right.
2
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) After your book
3 came out, sir, were
you aware that
4 Mr. Ubowski publicly
denied the accuracy of
5 the statement that he
concluded Patsy Ramsey
6 wrote the ransom
note?
7
A. No. You're telling me this for
8 the first time.
9
Q. Are
you familiar that Mr. Ubowski
10 stated that he had
never reached the
11 conclusion that 24 of
her letters out of the
12 26 letters of the
alphabet were matched with
13 the ransom note?
14
A. No, I
have not heard that.
15
Q. And
you stated to the contrary in
16 your book, didn't
you?
17
A. Yeah,
I stated what I was told by
18 my detective
sergeant.
19
Q. And
you weren't even, I guess,
20 aware that Mr.
Ubowski and the CBI said they
21 don't even make that
kind of analysis with
22 respect to the 24 out
of the 26 letters of
23 the alphabet, you
don't know anything about
24 that --
25
A. No.
112
1
Q. -- in
terms of the public
2 statement by the CBI
after your book was
3 published?
4
A. The
CBI made a public statement?
5
Q. Yes,
sir.
6
A. As an
organization, I haven't seen
7 that.
8
MR. WOOD: I'll show it to
you
9 when we come back a
little bit later on.
10 Let's take five
minutes.
11
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time
is
12 11:06. We're going off the record. This is
13 the end of tape one.
14
(Recess taken from 11:06 a.m. to
15 11:15 a.m.)
16
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time
is
17 11:15. We're back on the record. This is
18 the beginning of tape
two.
19
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) I think you told
20 me this, but I want
to make sure so we don't
21 leave here with any
confusion on this point.
22 Do you know whether
the DNA of Chris Wolf
23 was ever tested by
law enforcement
24 authorities?
25
A. Once
again, no, I don't have
113
1 personal knowledge of
that.
2
Q. Thank
you. Do you have any
3 knowledge, and I'm
including not personal but
4 secondhand, but did
you ever hear anything
5 about whether his DNA
was tested from anyone,
6 doesn't have to be personal knowledge to
you,
7 did you ever get it
hearsay or otherwise that
8 his DNA had been
tested?
9
A. No, as
I sit here right now,
10 Mr. Wood, yeah, I
don't have any recollection
11 of any of --
conversation about Mr. Wolf's
12 DNA testing.
13
Q. And I
take it from what you've
14 told me, you would
have no idea why Tom
15 Wickman might have
contacted Chris Wolf in
16 1999 asking him at
the time that Wolf lived
17 in New Orleans,
asking him to come by the
18 Boulder Police
Department on his next visit
19 to Boulder; you would
have no knowledge about
20 that, would you?
21
A. What
was the time period?
22
Q. 1999.
23
A. No. No, of course not.
24
Q. Was in
fact Chris Wolf
25 investigated in any fashion by the Boulder
114
1 Police Department in
connection with the
2 murder of Susannah
Chase?
3
A. I believe
so, yes.
4
Q. Was he
a suspect in this case?
5
A.
Courtesy of Jackie Dilson, I
6 believe so.
7
Q. And
was he cleared with respect to
8 the Susannah Chase
murder?
9
A. Again,
I believe so.
10
Q. Do you
know why or on what basis
11 he was cleared?
12
A. No.
13
Q. Did
you ever get any hearsay from
14 any of the detectives about what basis they
15 relied on in clearing
Chris Wolf in either
16 the Susannah Chase
murder or the JonBenet
17 Ramsey murder?
18
A. For
some reason, and I don't know
19 why this stands out,
that Yamaguchi, the
20 detective who led the
Chase murder, I
21 believe, I think they
had DNA evidence in
22 that case.
23
Q. How
about with the JonBenet Ramsey
24 case, any hearsay as
to what he -- the basis
25 upon which he was
allegedly cleared?
115
1
A. No. If I'm answering the same
2 question, yeah.
3
Q. Just
trying to make sure I've got
4 your answer
down. You don't -- you didn't
5 hear from a hearsay
standpoint, you didn't
6 get anything from any
of the detectives about
7 the basis upon which
he was allegedly cleared
8 by the department,
right?
9
A. No,
other than relying on
10 Weinheimer's
clearance of him.
11 Q. The statement that he
is cleared?
12
A. Right.
13
Q. But
you don't know why --
14
A. Right.
15
Q. -- or any basis, right?
16
A. That's
correct.
17
Q.
Secondhand or otherwise, correct?
18
A. Yes.
19
Q. Now,
you do know that after the
20 Boulder Police
Department had investigated
21 Mr. Wolf, that the
district attorney's office
22 was still actively
investigating an intruder
23 theory and that Fleet
White, Bill McReynolds
24 and Chris Wolf were
on the top of their
25 suspect list. You do know that to be true,
116
1 don't you, sir?
2
A. Yes.
3
Q. And
that would have been in 1998?
4
A. As to
when the DA's office was
5 conducting this
investigation?
6
Q. Yes.
7
A. They
were doing a lot of things
8 we were entirely
unaware of. But if you're
9 telling me they were
doing that in 1998, I
10 won't contest it.
11
Q. Well,
what you do know is that
12 the Boulder Police
Department investigated
13 Chris Wolf as a
suspect and you know that
14 even after the
Boulder Police Department had
15 investigated him that
the Boulder district
16 attorney's office was
still investigating
17 Chris Wolf as a
suspect and that he was,
18 along with Fleet
White and Bill McReynolds,
19 on the top of the
DA's list?
20
MR. DIAMOND: Just for
21 clarification, after
the Boulder Police
22 Department cleared
him?
23
MR. WOOD: Yeah.
24
A. No, I
don't know that time line.
25 Certainly the DA
investigators would but there
117
1 was a period in here
where there -- this was
2 not a hand-in- glove
fit and there was not a
3 lot of communication
being shared.
4
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Timing aside, we
5 can get clear
agreement that Chris Wolf was
6 from your knowledge not only a suspect for
7 the Boulder Police
Department, but at the top
8 of the list, along
with McReynolds and Fleet
9 White, of the suspect
list of the Boulder
10 district attorney's
office in its
11 investigation, true?
12
A.
Certainly seemed to be.
13
Q. And
that was your understanding
14 and knowledge, right?
15
A. That
they were still interested in
16 those parties, yes.
17
Q. That
Mr. Wolf was on the top of
18 their suspect list,
along with McReynolds and
19 Fleet White?
20
A. That
was my impression.
21
Q. And
knowledge, I mean not just
22 impression, you knew
that as being a fact,
23 didn't you?
24
A. Yeah,
they were still investigating
25 those three individuals.
118
1
Q. Now,
what was Don Foster's -- did
2 he give a written
report to you on Chris
3 Wolf's handwriting?
4 A. He may have. That would be in
5 the Boulder Police
Department.
6
Q. Did
you -- do you recall ever
7 reviewing it?
8
A. I may
or may not have. I know
9 that we took him
handwriting of several
10 potential
suspects. But no, as I sit here
11 today, I don't
recollect Mr. Foster or
12 Dr. Foster's written
report on Chris Wolf.
13
Q. Did
Don Foster examine hundreds of
14 writing examples from
people ranging from
15 family members to
Internet addicts, from
16 neighbors to Chris
Wolf to the McReynolds
17 family and a library
of books, films and
18 videotapes?
19
A. Yes.
20
Q. Do you
know what he concluded with
21 respect to each of
the individuals that he
22 analyzed?
23
A. Yeah,
that they were not the
24 author of the ransom
note.
25
Q. He
eliminated everybody, Don Foster
119
1 did, didn't he?
2
A. But one, yes.
3
Q. Right. In fact Don Foster told
4 you that of all of
the hundreds of people of
5 the samples that he
had looked at that he
6 had conclusively
eliminated everybody and that
7 it was impossible for
anyone to have written
8 that note other than
Patsy Ramsey; that's
9 what Don Foster told
you, right?
10
A. Those
are your words, not his, but
11 I --
12
Q. Excuse
me.
13
A. If I
could finish.
14
Q. Yeah,
you sure can.
15
A. He
stated unequivocally that she
16 was the author of the
ransom note.
17 Q. Do you, again, I'm
sorry if I
18 didn't hear you or
understand you earlier,
19 you don't know
whether any search warrant was
20 ever issued with
respect to Chris Wolf, do
21 you, firsthand
knowledge or you have none and
22 hearsay otherwise you
have not heard of any
23 search warrant?
24
A. I know
Steve Ainsworth was out
25 there, I
believe. And there was some
120
1 discussion regarding
that, but I don't know
2 if he was out there
by way of a search
3 warrant or not, I
would doubt it.
4 Q. Do you know what was done with
5 the pillow case that
Jackie Dilson brought to
6 the Boulder Police
Department when you first
7 met with her?
8
A.
Actually, she didn't come to the
9 Boulder Police
Department. We met her at a
10 third-party location.
11
Q. Where
was that?
12
A. The
office of her attorney.
13
Q. Did
you all ever ask her to
14 submit
to any type of mental health
15 examination?
16
A. Jackie
Dilson?
17
Q. Yes.
18
A. Not
that I'm aware of.
19
Q. What
was your basis for concluding
20 that she was mentally
instable -- unstable?
21
A. Ten or
11 years of police work in
22 dealing with
thousands of people, but beyond
23 that I think the
transcript of that exchange
24 and some of what I
have earlier mentioned
25 about Third World
conspiracies led me to that
121
1 conclusion.
2 Q. Do you have any
formal training in
3 psychology?
4
A. No.
5
Q. Do you
have any formal training in
6 psychiatry?
7
A. No.
8
Q. Do you
have any license to conduct
9 mental health
examinations?
10
A. No.
11
Q. You
told me that you all met at a
12 third party's office
but you didn't tell me
13 what I wanted to know
and, that is, do you
14 know what was done
with the pillow case that
15 Jackie Dilson
presented to the Boulder police
16 when you first met
with her?
17
A. If my
recollection is accurate, I
18 believe Detective
Gosage took custody and
19 maintained that chain
on that piece of
20 aforementioned
rope. But I do not know
21 whether or not he
took the pillow case.
22 Q. And you don't know
firsthand or
23 secondhand, hearsay
or otherwise if any
24 testing was ever done
on the pillow case,
25 forensic testing; is
that right?
122
1
A. When
you mentioned hearsay or
2 third hand, again, it
was my understanding
3 that she delivered to
the Boulder County
4 district attorney's
office and their
5 investigators a
number of items subsequent to
6 our meeting.
7
Q. I want
to go back. I told you I
8 would do it, let's do
it now. Look at page
9 281 of your book,
please, the hardback copy.
10 The top of the page,
the first actually it
11 starts with "Don
Foster from Vassar." Do you
12 see it?
13
A. Yes.
14
Q. The
first paragraph there under
15 that starts "'In
my opinion, it is not
16 possible that any
individual except Patsy
17 Ramsey wrote the
ransom note.'" Have I read
18 that correctly?
19
A. Yes.
20 Q. Earlier we were
talking about
21 whose words. Don Foster stated that it was
22 impossible for anyone
else to have written
23 the note except Patsy
Ramsey, true?
24
A. This is
his statement, yes, sir.
25
Q. It was
not -- and so I was
123
1 accurate earlier,
that he said to you it's
2 impossible that anyone
else wrote it?
3
A. Well,
when I asked about your
4 earlier quotation, I
don't think you said
5 this verbatim. But --
6
Q. Fine. But he did tell you it was
7 impossible, didn't
he, it was not possible,
8 which is saying to
you as a detective, it's
9 impossible that
anyone else wrote it according
10 to Don Foster, right?
11
A. Yes,
that was the conclusion that
12 he shared with me,
Mr. Wood.
13
Q. But
when you worked with him, and
14 you worked with him a
lot, didn't you? You
15 all spent a
considerable amount of time
16 discussing this case,
didn't you, you and Don
17 Foster?
18
A. When
you say considerable amount
19 of time, you know,
no, I didn't spend weeks
20 or days with Don
Foster, but he was an
21 outside expert that we used in this case,
22 yes.
23
Q. At any
time did Don Foster,
24 himself, ever
disclose to you that he had
25 written a letter to
Patsy Ramsey?
124
1
A. Yeah,
I became aware of that at
2 some point.
3
Q. After
the district attorney's
4 office presented you
with the information
5 about Jamison, true?
6
A. I
believe that's correct.
7
Q. Did
Don Foster when you were
8 working with him for
whatever period of time
9 you spent with him, when
he was giving you
10 his conclusions about
the JonBenet Ramsey case
11 and the impossibility
that anybody else wrote
12 that note except
Patsy Ramsey, did he ever
13 look at you and say,
you know, you probably
14 ought to know,
though, that I did write a
15 letter to Patsy
Ramsey where I told her that
16 I was convinced that
she was innocent? He
17 never told you that,
did he?
18 A. We had that conversation at some
19 point.
20
Q. After
he had already been outed by
21 the Boulder DA, true?
22
A.
Possibly.
23
Q. Do you
think you had it before
24 then and didn't
disclose it to your police
25 department in the
presentation?
125
1
A. No,
that sounds reasonable.
2
Q. You
would have if you would have
3 known it, you would
have told the police
4 department about that
in the June
5 presentation,
wouldn't you, sir?
6
A. Right.
7
Q. Well,
actually the presentation
8 with Foster was in
March, wasn't it?
9
A. If
we're talking about 1998.
10
Q. We
are.
11
A. It was
the spring of 1998.
12 Q. Right. Now, your materials, just
13 so that I have got
this down, how many boxes
14 were these police
records and file copies of
15 reports and things,
both the ones you copied
16 and the ones
anonymously sent to you from,
17 you believe, from
someone in the Boulder
18 Police Department,
right?
19
A. Logic
would conclude that.
20
Q. Yeah,
and that was your
21 conclusion?
22
A. Yes.
23
Q. And,
you know, how many boxes did
24 you store those
materials in?
25
A. One
cardboard box.
126
1
Q. Size?
2
A. A
file-size cardboard box, a
3 banker's box.
4
Q. How
was it marked?
5
A.
Unmarked.
6 Q. What color was it?
7
A. White.
8
Q. Did
you have a concern? I mean,
9 you've been in law
enforcement for a number
10 of years. You've got an ongoing
11 investigation. Did you take any particular
12 precautions to
maintain the integrity of those
13 documents?
14
A. No.
15
Q. Did
you give them to Don Davis?
16
A. Don Davis
doesn't have -- no, he
17 doesn't have that box
or any of those
18 records.
19
Q. Did he
look at them?
20
A. Are
you talking about the
21 preparation of the
book?
22
Q. I'm
talking about the reports.
23 Did Don Davis ever
see the reports --
24
A. He may
have.
25
Q. -- and
the copies of the file
127
1 that you made?
2
A. He may
have.
3
Q. Have
you ever made any effort to
4 find them?
5
A. No.
6
Q. When did
you learn that they were
7 lost?
8
MR. DIAMOND: He didn't say
ever
9 they were lost.
10
MR. WOOD: I'm sorry?
11
MR. DIAMOND: He never
testified
12 that they were lost.
13
MR. WOOD: Misplaced or
lost.
14 Can we agree one of
the two things occurred?
15 I always kind of
figured lost means
16 misplaced, too. When you've lost something,
17 you've lost it. It doesn't imply
18 intentionally. Although, one might draw their
19 own conclusion.
20
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) The point is when
21 did you -- if you --
you've made no effort
22 to look for
them. When did you first learn
23 that the file box was
either lost or
24 misplaced and
couldn't be found?
25
A. The
last time I recall looking in
128
1 that box was at some
point in the weeks
2 prior to the book
coming out.
3
Q. I'm
not asking you the last time
4 you looked at
it. I'm asking you when you
5 first learned that
you couldn't find it. You
6 came here today under
oath and told me --
7
A. I
haven't been looking for it,
8 Mr. Wood.
9
Q.
Because you've told me under oath,
10 sir, that you can't
find it, haven't you?
11
MR. DIAMOND: I don't think
he
12 has. I don't think he's ever testified to
13 that. Why don't you ask him that.
14
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Didn't you tell me
15 where -- do you know
where it is?
16
A. No.
17
Q. Have
you made any effort to look
18 for it in recent
months?
19
A. No.
20
Q. You
didn't think that, you know,
21 Lin Wood is going to
examine me on the
22 Ramsey investigation,
I ought to try to read
23 over some of my
reports and remember some
24 things so I'm up to
speed; you didn't ever
25 have that thought as
you came into this
129
1 deposition?
2
A. No,
I'm here to answer your
3 questions today.
4
Q. But
why would you not want to
5 refresh your
recollection about the
6 investigation when
you know I'm going to be
7 asking you about it
and you knew that?
8
A. I did. As I told you earlier, I
9 reread my book.
10
Q. But
your -- all these reports and
11 all these copies of
police reports, there is
12 a lot more
information there than what is in
13 your book, isn't
there, sir?
14
A. There
may be, yeah. The book is
15 not a police report,
it's a narrative.
16
Q. No,
then it's not complete. It
17 certainly is not as
complete as the hundreds
18 of pages of police
files, reports and copies
19 of reports that you
have had at least at
20 some point in time in
your possession, is it?
21
A. It's
not a reproduction of the
22 30,000 plus page case
file, no. That's
23 ridiculous. No.
24
Q. It's
not a reproduction of the
25 hundreds of pages that you had in your
130
1 possession, is my
question, is it, sir?
2
A. No.
3
Q. I
mean, if we want to find out
4 what information you
know about this
5 investigation from
the police reports, we
6 can't get an answer
to that from reading the
7 book. We would have to look at all the
8 files and the reports
that you had, wouldn't
9 we?
10
A. I'm
here to answer your questions
11 today.
12
Q. Answer
that one for me. If I
13 want to try to find
out what information you
14 had known or what you
knew about this
15 investigation from
all these hundreds of
16 police reports that
you copied or that were
17 sent to you, I can't
get that answer from
18 your book. I can only get that answer if I
19 can look at those
files and reports, true?
20
A. Okay.
21
Q. Is
that true?
22
A. Sure.
23
Q. Do you know Jeff Shapiro?
24
A. I did,
so I guess in present
25 tense I do if I knew
him at one time.
131
1
Q. Do you
know of Mr. Shapiro's
2 documentation of
telephone conversations by
3 taping them?
4
A. In a
particular context I do.
5
Q. Do you
have any knowledge,
6 recollection of telephone
conversations between
7 you and Jeff Shapiro
when you were in
8 Quantico, Virginia
preparing to meet with the
9 FBI? Did you talk with Mr. Shapiro during
10 that time period?
11
A. I did.
12
Q. Do you
have any notes about those
13 conversations?
14
A. No.
15
Q. Do you
have any recollection of
16 the substance of
those conversations?
17
A.
Vaguely.
18
Q. You
did, in fact, provide
19 information to Ann
Bardach at Vanity Fair
20 about the JonBenet
Ramsey investigation,
21 didn't you, sir?
22
A. I did.
23
Q. You
also provided information about
24 the JonBenet Ramsey
investigation to Carol
25 McKinley, didn't you,
sir?
132
1
A. We
discussed the politics of the
2 investigation. I consider Carol a friend
3 now.
4
Q. While
you were still on the force
5 active in the
investigation, you provided
6 information about it
to Ann Bardach at Vanity
7 Fair, you discussed
it with Carol McKinley
8 and you also provided
it to the supermarket
9 tabloid The Globe
through Jeff Shapiro, true?
10
A. No, I
disagree with your
11 characterization of
whatever you're trying to
12 say about
Shapiro. I wasn't supplying him
13 with information
about --
14
Q. You
didn't --
15
A. -- the
case.
16
Q. You
didn't tell Jeff Shapiro to
17 come get in a tree at
the Ramsey house
18 because you were all
going over there and
19 sleep there one
night?
20
A. I
think the tree was his own
21 doing but I did
mention to him that we were
22 going to be at the
Ramsey house, yes.
23
Q. Well,
we'll go into Mr. Shapiro
24 and that a little bit
later.
25
MR. WOOD: Darnay?
133
1
MR. HOFFMAN: Yes.
2
MR. WOOD: Give me two
seconds.
3
MR. HOFFMAN: Should I
start?
4
MR. DIAMOND: In two
seconds.
5
MR. WOOD: Darnay?
6
MR. HOFFMAN: Yes.
7
MR. WOOD: I'm going to turn
it
8 over to you and you
have at it.
9
MR. HOFFMAN: Thank you very
much,
10 Mr. Wood.
11
MR. WOOD: Where are we on
time
12 so that I know what I
did? I might have
13 gone over five
minutes longer than I meant
14 to.
15
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Total?
16
MR. WOOD: Total time of
17 testimony.
18 VIDEO
TECHNICIAN: Two hours and
19 ten minutes.
20
MR. WOOD: Two hours and ten
21 minutes. Thank you.
22
EXAMINATION
23
BY-MR.HOFFMAN:
24
Q. Hello,
Mr. Thomas.
25
A. Hello,
Mr. Hoffman. How are you?
134
1
Q. Fine. How are you?
2
A. Fine. Thank you.
3 Q. Can you hear me all
right?
4
A. I can.
5
Q. All
right. Mr. Thomas, you have
6 a copy of your
hardcover book with you, don't
7 you?
8
A. Yes, sir.
9
Q. All
right. Could you just turn
10 to page 14 of your
book?
11
A. Okay.
12
Q. Yes,
do you see the first full
13 paragraph on page 14
that begins "The
14 district
attorney"?
15
A. Yes,
sir.
16
Q. Could
you just read the first
17 sentence out loud,
please?
18
A.
Certainly. "The
district attorney
19 and his top prosecutor, two police chiefs and
20 a large number of
cops, although so at odds
21 on some points that
they almost came to
22 blows, all agreed on
one thing - that
23 probable cause existed
to arrest Patsy Ramsey
24 in connection with
the death of her
25 daughter."
135
1
Q. Is
that an accurate statement?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3
Q. Now, I
would like to ask you some
4 questions with
respect to that statement. To
5 begin with, if you
wouldn't mind, regarding
6 one of the two police
chiefs, could you turn
7 to page 299 of your
book?
8
A. Okay.
9
Q. Yes. The second paragraph on 299
10 begins "Even
after DeMuth's recital of our
11 shortcomings,"
could you just read those two
12 sentences?
13
A.
"Even after DeMuth's recital of
14 our shortcomings I
felt we held a decent
15 hand. Commander Beckner told me later that
16 he thought we had
gone far beyond showing
17 probable cause."
18
Q. Would
you read the next sentence?
19
A.
Certainly. "'I think
she (Patty
20 Ramsey) did it,' he
said. 'We should just
21 charge them both with
felony murder and
22 aiding and
abetting'".
23
Q. Is
that an accurate statement of
24 what you heard?
25
A. Yes,
it is.
136
1
Q. Did
Mr. -- actually Commander
2 Beckner tell you that
personally?
3
A. On
more than one occasion.
4
Q. Could
you please explain or
5 elaborate a little
further on each occasion
6 how that statement
came about?
7
A.
Certainly. Inside the
police
8 department situation
room that housed this
9 Ramsey investigation,
there were probably a
10 handful of occasions
on which or in which
11 Mark Beckner made
statements like that or
12 similar to that
indicating that we had
13 sufficient facts and
circumstances rising to a
14 level of probable
cause for an arrest of
15 Patsy Ramsey.
16
Q. Do you
know approximately how many
17 times -- on how many
occasions he made that
18 statement?
19
MR. WOOD: Wait, let me ask
you a
20 question if I could,
Darnay, for
21 clarification. Are you asking him for -- I'm
22 sorry, I have to get
my mike on. Are you
23 asking him for the
statement that Patsy
24 Ramsey was a killer
or for the statement that
25 there was probable
cause for an arrest, which
137
1 is --
2
MR. HOFFMAN: I'm asking for
the
3 statement that is
actually in the book which
4 is that there is
probable cause for an
5 arrest.
6
MR. WOOD: Okay. All right.
7 That's what I wanted
to clarify. Thank you.
8
A. Mr.
Hoffman, could you repeat your
9 question to me?
10
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) I'm sorry, can
11 you tell me
approximately how many, the
12 number, how many
times or how many occasions
13 he made that
statement?
14
A. As I
may have mentioned, a handful
15 that I
overheard. There was no disputing
16 that among the
detective team. He may have
17 said that outside of
my presence. In fact,
18 I think he -- I think
he did in relation to
19 what we're talking
about.
20
Q. But
within your own presence, how
21 many times do you
think approximately he said
22 that?
23
MR. WOOD: Again, talking
about
24 there is probable
cause for an arrest?
25 MR.
HOFFMAN: Probable cause for
138
1 an arrest, that
statement.
2
MR. WOOD: Thank you.
3
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) The gist of
4 that statement that
there was probable cause
5 for an arrest?
6
A. A half
a dozen times.
7
Q. Half a
dozen times. Did on any
8 of those occasions, did
he explain why he
9 felt there was
probable cause for an arrest?
10
A. Mr.
Hoffman, at that time I think
11 he was sufficiently
familiar with the facts
12 of the investigation
to make that conclusion
13 on his own as did, as
you previously
14 mentioned, the other
detectives in the case.
15
Q. All
right. Do you know if the
16 prior commander,
Commander John Eller, ever
17 commented on who he
thought may have in fact
18 either written the
ransom note or committed
19 the crime of
murdering JonBenet Ramsey?
20
MR. WOOD: Do you want him
to
21 answer two questions? Why don't you ask him
22 one at a time.
23
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) Okay. Was
24 there ever an
occasion when John Eller
25 expressed an opinion
as to whether or not
139
1 there was probable
cause to arrest someone
2 for the murder of
JonBenet Ramsey?
3
A. Yeah. And, Mr. Hoffman, if you
4 can direct me back to
the first page you
5 asked about.
6
MR. DIAMOND: Fourteen.
7
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) Page 14.
8
A. Yeah. Eller was one of those
9 commanders that I
think I -- I'm sorry, I
10 didn't define it as a
commander but Eller was
11 certainly one of the
large number of cops, as
12 noted on page 14.
13
Q. You
said there are two police
14 chiefs. Now, I believe that Commander
15 Beckner replaced
Commander Koby; is that
16 correct?
17
A.
Commander Beckner did indeed
18 replace Chief Koby.
19
Q. All
right. Now, was Chief Koby
20 one of the police
chiefs you're referring to?
21
A. Yes.
22
Q. Did
Chief Koby ever express an
23 opinion as to whether
or not probable cause
24 existed for someone to
be arrested for the
25 murder of JonBenet
Ramsey?
140
1
A. He
did; he's one of the two
2 police chiefs I'm
referring to in this
3 paragraph.
4
Q. Do you
know the substance of his
5 statement; did he
ever make a statement like
6 that in your
presence?
7
A. He may
have but it was certainly
8 relayed down through
the chain of command
9 through Wickman to
the rest of us that Koby
10 concurred and Koby
may have very well told me
11 that himself as well.
12 Q. But you presently
don't have any
13 memory of him saying
it to you personally; is
14 that correct?
15
A. Koby?
16
Q. Yes.
17
A. Koby
was present in briefings when
18 probable cause was
discussed and Koby was in
19 total agreement. So, yeah, I do have a
20 recollection of Koby
being present and
21 agreeing with that
concept.
22 Q. Did commander or
Chief Koby ever
23 indicate who it was
that he believed there
24 was sufficient
probable cause to arrest for
25 the murder of
JonBenet Ramsey?
141
1
A. Yes,
the discussion was concerning
2 Patricia Ramsey.
3
Q. And
did he express a belief that
4 Patricia Ramsey
should be arrested for the
5 murder of JonBenet Ramsey?
6
A. I
don't know if Koby ever went so
7 far as allowing for
an arrest to be made but
8 certainly concurring
on probable cause.
9
Q.
Actually what I'm trying to
10 determine is whether
or not he ever actually
11 expressed the belief
that Patsy Ramsey should
12 be arrested based on
probable cause for the
13 murder of her
daughter?
14 A. My distinction would be not should
15 be but could be. Koby was not entirely an
16 over-aggressive
individual that was willing to
17 take that next step.
18
Q. But
Commander Koby, based on the
19 evidence that you
believe existed in the
20 case, felt that there
was sufficient basis by
21 which Patsy Ramsey
could be arrested for the
22 murder of JonBenet
Ramsey?
23 A. Correct.
24
Q. Thank
you. All right. Now, you
25 also -- I also asked
about John Eller, who I
142
1 know is technically
not a police chief, he
2 was in charge of the
investigation. Did John
3 Eller ever express a
belief or an opinion
4 that probable cause
existed for the arrest of
5 someone for the
murder of JonBenet Ramsey?
6
A. Yes.
7
Q. Can
you tell me who that person
8 was that he thought
should or could be
9 arrested -- actually
I am going to rephrase
10 that. Withdraw the question.
11
Did he ever name an individual
12 that he thought could
be arrested for
13 probable cause in the
murder of JonBenet
14 Ramsey?
15
A.
Patricia Ramsey.
16
Q. Did he
ever express that to you
17 personally?
18
A. Yes.
19
Q. On
more than one occasion?
20
A. Yes.
21
Q. Did he
ever discuss why he thought
22 probable cause
existed for the arrest of
23 Patricia Ramsey for
the murder of JonBenet
24 Ramsey?
25
A. My
belief that he, too, was
143
1 sufficiently familiar
with the facts and
2 circumstances that
were sufficient to meet a
3 threshold of probable
cause and said that on
4 occasion in the detective
briefings that
5 spring of '97.
6
Q. Now,
with respect to the district
7 attorney, again I'm
referring you back to
8 page 14, you begin by
saying "The district
9 attorney and his top
prosecutor." Who was
10 the top prosecutor
you were referring to?
11
A. Pete
Hofstrom.
12
Q. Is it
your testimony that Pete
13 Hofstrom believed
that probable cause existed
14 for an arrest?
15
A. Yeah,
absolutely. He conceded
16 that there was
probable cause but there were
17 some sticking points
beyond that. But as to
18 the issue of probable
cause, yeah, that was
19 his express
conversation with me that we had
20 met that burden.
21
Q. So you
actually had a conversation
22 with Pete Hofstrom
with respect to the issue
23 of whether probable cause existed?
24
A.
Several times.
25
Q. And
did he identify the person who
144
1 he thought could be
arrested for probable
2 cause for the murder
of JonBenet Ramsey?
3
A. We
were talking about it in
4 connection with
Patricia Ramsey. So I'm
5 assuming he was -- it
was just a two-person
6 conversation at
times. So yes.
7
Q. Do you
know whether or not the
8 district attorney,
Alex Hunter, ever expressed
9 an opinion as to
whether or not probable
10 cause existed for the
arrest of someone in
11 the murder of
JonBenet Ramsey?
12
A. I'm
told he did.
13
Q. So
you, in fact, never heard Alex
14 Hunter express an
opinion with respect to
15 that?
16
A. Only
through, for example, Mark
17 Beckner and Tom
Wickman.
18
Q.
Exactly what did Mark Beckner say
19 with respect to his
understanding of what
20 Alex Hunter said
regarding the issue of
21 probable cause?
22
A. Very
simply relaying to the
23 detective team that
Hunter was aware and knew
24 and conceded that
fact.
25
Q. Conceded
what fact?
145
1
A. The
fact that probable cause
2 existed for an arrest
in this case.
3
Q. Did --
do you know if Alex Hunter
4 ever identified the
person as being the
5 person for which
sufficient probable cause
6 existed for an arrest
in the murder of
7 JonBenet Ramsey?
8
A. In the
context of which it was
9 being presented
that's what we were talking
10 about was the
possible arrest of Patsy
11 Ramsey.
12
Q. I
would like you to look at page
13 327 of your book, if
you don't mind, please.
14 And I refer you, when
you found that page,
15 to the very last
paragraph at the end of the
16 page, beginning
"Alex Hunter." If you
would
17 just read that
sentence, that one sentence.
18
A.
"Alex Hunter said he thought Patsy
19 Ramsey was
involved."
20
Q. Okay. Did he actually -- did you
21 actually hear him say
that?
22
MR. WOOD: Hey, Darnay?
23
MR. HOFFMAN: I'm sorry,
yes?
24
MR. WOOD: Can I ask you to
put
25 that sentence in
context by having him
146
1 complete the reading
of the next couple
2 sentences.
3
MR. HOFFMAN: Sure, I'm
sorry.
4
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) Yes, would you,
5 please, just --
6
MR. HOFFMAN: How many more
7 sentences do you want
him to read, Lin?
8
MR. WOOD: Just the next
one.
9 The next two.
10
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) All right.
11 Read the next one,
please, Mr. Thomas.
12
MR. WOOD: Start from
"Alex
13 Hunter" and read
down, if you would, through
14 "demeanor."
15
A.
"Alex Hunter said that he thought
16 Patsy Ramsey was
involved. That was more
17 than offset by
comments from his staff."
18
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) All right.
19 Were you present when
Alex Hunter said that?
20
A. Yes.
21
Q. You
were. So you actually had an
22 occasion to hear Alex
Hunter express a belief
23 with respect to Patsy
Ramsey's involvement in
24 the case?
25 A. Yes.
147
1
Q. Do you
know when that event was,
2 when this statement
was made?
3
A. May I
look at the book for a
4 moment and maybe it
will --
5
Q. I have
no problem with that.
6
A. Okay.
7
MR. HOFFMAN: I would just
like
8 the record to reflect
that Mr. Thomas is, in
9 fact, refreshing his
memory with respect to
10 my question by
looking at the book.
11
MR. WOOD: If I can help, it
12 looks to me in
context that would have been
13 on one of the
evenings in June of 1998
14 following the
interrogations. I don't know
15 if Mr. Thomas agrees
with that or not.
16
MR. DIAMOND: Who is
testifying
17 here?
18
MR. WOOD: I was trying to move
19 it along. I would be glad to testify if you
20 want to examine me on
another occasion,
21 Mr. Diamond.
22
MR. DIAMOND: All right.
23 A. Mr. Hoffman, this was
June of
24 1998.
25
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) June of 1998.
148
1 So you were actually
present and heard him
2 make a statement to
that effect; is that
3 correct?
4
A. Yes.
5
Q. Now,
do you have any knowledge as
6 to whether or not the
FBI ever had an
7 opinion with respect
to whether probable cause
8 existed for the
arrest of someone for the
9 murder of JonBenet
Ramsey?
10
A. It was
my impression and they were
11 very professional in
our dealings with them,
12 but I don't think
they ever countered or
13 challenged the fact
that the police department
14 had this sufficient
probable cause.
15
Q. Do you
know whether or not the
16 FBI actually saw the evidence that the
police
17 had with respect to
whether or not there was
18 probable cause to
charge someone for the
19 murder of JonBenet
Ramsey?
20
A. Well,
certainly a lot of the facts
21 and the evidence, the
factual evidence, from
22 this case was shared
with members of the FBI.
23
Q. Did
you ever have occasion to
24 speak with any of the
members of the FBI
25 that were looking at
the evidence?
149
1
A. Yeah,
on several occasions. And
2 again, I think they
always tempered comments
3 and were most
professional. But, again, I,
4 Mr. Hoffman, don't
have that specific
5 recollection of an
exchange but it was always
6 my impression that
they supported us fully on
7 that.
8
Q. Do you
know whether or not the
9 FBI had occasion to
examine the ransom note
10 and handwriting
exemplars of either John or
11 Patsy Ramsey?
12
A. I don't
know whether or not the
13 FBI conducted any
examinations of handwriting
14 exemplars, but they
certainly reviewed and
15 studied and discussed
with us the ransom note
16 itself.
17 Q. Did they offer any insight or any
18 analysis of the
ransom note?
19
A. They
did.
20
Q. Do you
remember what that analysis
21 consisted of?
22
A. We had
a meeting in Quantico,
23 Virginia and I'm
trying to recollect the
24 date. It doesn't come to me right now. But
25 nonetheless, the
ransom note was dissected and
150
1 profiled and so
forth. And certainly I would
2 suggest that you ask
any of them. But it's
3 my recollection of
that meeting, of which
4 reports were written
and, you know, there is
5 a lot of information
about what went on in
6 those meetings, but
how patently bogus and
7 crafted and stilted
and just non authentic
8 this ransom note was.
9 Q. I would like you to turn, if you
10 will, please, to page
312 of your book.
11
A. Okay.
12
Q. And I
would like you to look at
13 what looks like to be
the third sentence.
14 It begins
"'What's going on in that DA's
15 office.'" If you would read that paragraph
16 -- to the end of that
paragraph and then
17 read the next
paragraph.
18
A. Okay. "'What's going on in that
19 DA's office is a
disgrace' one of the FBI
20 agents observed
during our last supper. This
21 case has become an
embarrassment to law
22 enforcement. We were all in agreement. 'It
23 is terribly
discouraging how the DA is
24 handling this,' said
one Dream Team attorney,
25 'Hunter is going to
outsmart himself on this
151
1 one.'"
2
Q. Did
you actually hear that
3 statement made.
4
A. Which
statement is that?
5
Q. The
quote from the FBI agent,
6 what's going on is a
disgrace?
7
A. Yes.
8
Q. Just
everything that you read
9 there you have in
quotations --
10
A. Yes.
11
Q. --
were you actually present at
12 that?
13
A. I was.
14
Q. Yes. And is that an accurate
15 recollection of what
was said?
16
A. Yes.
17
Q. Do you
know what they were
18 referring to when
they said that what was
19 going on in the DA's
office is a disgrace?
20
A. They
were certainly familiar with
21 a lot of the history
and the animosity and,
22 you know, the ugly
politics involved in this
23 thing and I don't
know to what disgrace
24 they're specifically
referring to but I think
25 it can cover a number
of things.
152
1
Q. Do you
know what they were
2 referring to when
they say, quote, Hunter is
3 going to outsmart
himself on this one,
4 unquote?
5
MR. DIAMOND: That was a Dream
6 Team attorney, not
the FBI.
7
MR. WOOD: Hey, Darnay, why
--
8
MR. HOFFMAN: You're right,
that's
9 correct, okay, I'm
sorry.
10 MR.
WOOD: Darnay, would it be --
11
MR. HOFFMAN: I admit that
and
12 I'm just going to
double back a little bit.
13 Lin, what were you
going to say?
14
MR. WOOD: I was going to
say
15 maybe it would be
helpful to figure out which
16 is which if we -- if
you want to ask him
17 who the FBI agent was
and who the Dream Team
18 attorney was.
19
MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah, Lin, I was
20 about to get to that.
21
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) In fact why
22 don't I just do that,
ask you who the FBI
23 agent was, if you
remember?
24
A. There were at least three
agents
25 at that dinner and it
may have been Mike
153
1 Morrow.
2
Q. Do you
know what, is it Mike
3 Morrow?
4
A.
Um-hum.
5
Q. What
his function was with the
6 FBI? I mean what exactly was his involvement
7 in the case?
8
A. He was
or is a special agent with
9 the Federal Bureau
based out of, I think
10 they're based out of
Quantico or that
11 Virginia-DC area and
he was assigned to that
12 child abduction and
serial killer unit.
13 Q. Did he ever express
an opinion as
14 to who he thought
committed this crime?
15
A. Again,
I think they were very
16 diplomatic in their
response, but I don't
17 recall that specific
conversation with
18 Mr. Morrow. But it certainly wouldn't
19 surprise me for him
to say he was consistent
20 with everyone else.
21
Q. Okay. So but you have no
22 personal knowledge of
that?
23
A. Right.
24
Q. Okay. Now, to the second
25 paragraph and,
please, excuse me, I'm sorry
154
1 for having you read
that in a way that could
2 confuse people. That second paragraph says
3 "'It is terribly
discouraging how the D A is
4 handling this,' said
one Dream Team attorney.
5 Hunter is going to
outsmart himself on this
6 one.'" Who was the Dream Team attorney who
7 made that statement,
if you remember?
8
A. I
believe that was Bob Miller.
9
Q. Was Bob
Miller at this meeting
10 where the prior
statement by the FBI agent
11 was made which we
have just referred to?
12
A. There
were several people in this
13 restaurant this
particular evening. So I
14 don't know whether or
not he heard, overheard
15 that conversation.
16
Q. Right. So his statement then may
17 not have been in
reaction to the FBI
18 statement; is that
correct?
19
A. Right.
20
Q. And do
you know what he meant
21 when he said that
Hunter is going to outsmart
22 himself on this one?
23
A. No. I think there are a number
24 of ways to interpret
it but it sort of
25 stands alone in my
mind.
155
1
Q. Mr.
Thomas, would you mind,
2 please, turning to page 302 of your book.
3
A. Okay.
4
Q. Do you
have it in front of you?
5
A. Yes,
I'm sorry, yes.
6
Q. Fine. Would you look at the
7 third paragraph from the top, which begins
8 "Two days before
we were to go onstage."
9 And would you read
that whole paragraph,
10 please.
11
A.
Certainly. "Two days
before we
12 were to go onstage,
we got some surprising
13 big news when the
Colorado Bureau of
14 Investigation lab
told us that the acrylic
15 fibers found on the
duct tape that covered
16 JonBenet's mouth were
a quote, likely match,
17 for Patsy's
blazer. We were ready."
18
Q. You've
been asked earlier with
19 respect to the
forensic, you know, not
20 importance, but the
forensic views that the
21 ransom note was being
made for. Did this
22 become an important
piece of forensic evidence
23 in the case?
24
MR. WOOD: You're talking
about
25 the ransom note now
or the likely match of
156
1 four fibers?
2
MR. HOFFMAN: I'm sorry,
thank
3 you, Lin.
4
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) Did the fibers
5 that were found on
the duct tape that were
6 covering JonBenet's
mouth that were, quote, a
7 likely match for
Patsy's blazer, did that
8 become an important
piece of forensic evidence
9 in the investigation?
10
A. Yes,
sir.
11
Q. Do you
know when or at what point
12 in the case the CBI
made that report?
13
A. I
think it was sometime before we
14 were told -- I think
that information may
15 have been held by
Wickman and Trujillo and
16 Beckner possibly.
17
Q. Do you
know whether or not that
18 information was actually
part of anyone's
19 presentation before
the district attorney that
20 was made prior to the
convening of a grand
21 jury when you turned
the case over to the
22 district attorney?
23 A. Mr. Hoffman, are you asking me --
24 I'm sorry, that's not
clear to me.
25
Q. All
right. That CBI report, did
157
1 you receive it before
you made your formal
2 presentation to the
district attorney's
3 office? That's a presentation that was made
4 prior to the
convening of the grand jury. I
5 believe it was in May
or June of 1998 when
6 you formally turned
over the case to the
7 district
attorney. I may have that date
8 wrong.
9
MR. WOOD: Hey, Darnay, I'm
just
10 a little unclear if
you don't mind.
11
MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah.
12
MR. WOOD: There were two
13 presentations, one
was made by Trip DeMuth I
14 believe in May and
then there was what we
15 call a VIP presentation that was made of a
16 lot of people other
than the DA's office in
17 June. Those are the two presentations. I'm
18 not sure which one
you are referring to.
19 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, thank you.
20 It is confusing,
there is no question about
21 it.
22
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) The presentation
23 that most people, and
myself included, think
24 of is that large presentation where you stood
25 up and you gave
evidence yourself. That's
158
1 the one where you
refer to Alex Hunter is
2 talking on a cell phone and it sort of --
it
3 seems at the end of
that you decided that
4 you had had enough of
the case and you were
5 going to move
on. That's the presentation
6 I'm talking about.
7
MR. HOFFMAN: I'm assuming
-- is
8 that the VIP
presentation, Lin?
9
MR. WOOD: I don't
know. I mean,
10 Steve Thomas would
have to figure out whether
11 that's an accurate
statement about whether he
12 heard, saw, or
thought or felt. I'm not
13 sure.
14
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) Well, you know
15 what, I'm just
confusing the issue. I'm
16 going to drop that
line of questioning and
17 just ask you, did you
have occasion to
18 actually see the CBI
report that indicated
19 that there was a
likely match for Patsy's
20 blazer with the
acrylic fiber found on the
21 duct tape?
22
A. Not
that I recall. Detective
23 Trujillo, who was in
charge of all the
24 evidence and forensic
testing in this case,
25 he and Wickman verbally offered that to the
159
1 rest of the detective
team.
2
Q. All
right. So you never
3 personally saw a
report with that result or
4 that conclusion?
5
A. I'm
relying on a fellow officer.
6
Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not
7 there was ever any
evidence that you saw or
8 you heard about in
the course of the
9 investigation while
you were still with the
10 Boulder police force
showing whether or not
11 any fibers from
either Patsy's clothing or
12 from her boots or
from any part of her was
13 found in JonBenet's
panties?
14
MR. WOOD: That's about
three or
15 four questions,
Darnay.
16
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) Do you know
17 whether or not there
was ever any evidence,
18 forensic evidence,
showing that any article of
19 clothing could be
matched to a substance
20 found in JonBenet's
diaper or panties?
21
MR. WOOD: I have to just
comment
22 that I don't believe
there was any evidence
23 that JonBenet was
wearing a diaper.
24
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) All right. To
25 her panties?
160
1
A. If I
understand the question
2 correctly, and now
just rephrase it so I'm
3 answering the right
question or --
4
Q. Yeah,
when JonBenet Ramsey was
5 found she was wearing
I don't know what other
6 word there is for it
but panties and there
7 was a question as to
whether or not there
8 were substances found
in that panty area.
9 What I'm asking you
is do you know if there
10 was ever any forensic
evidence indicating that
11 any article of
clothing that Patsy wore was
12 found as a particle
in that panty area of
13 JonBenet?
14
A. No, I
am unaware of any forensic
15 or fiber evidence
from Patsy Ramsey's clothing
16 to the victim's under
clothing or underwear.
17
Q. Do you
know if there was any
18 forensic evidence of
Patsy Ramsey's clothing
19 at all besides the
duct tape area on
20 JonBenet?
21
A. As we
sit here now, no, I don't
22 recollect any other
fiber evidence, other than
23 what we have
discussed linking the mother to
24 JonBenet.
25
Q. With
respect to what you have
161
1 referred to as a
master affidavit, could you
2 please describe what
a master affidavit is?
3
A.
Certainly. At some point
in, I
4 believe it was 1997,
the police department
5 asked me to be the
affiant on a master
6 affidavit and
basically the case was reaching
7 a proportion that it
needed to be condensed
8 into affidavit form
in the event a search
9 and/or arrest warrant
were necessary to carry
10 out on this case.
11
And given that assignment I tried
12 then over the course
of the next several,
13 many months to keep
that affidavit current.
14 Q. When you say keep the affidavit
15 current, how was the
affidavit prepared or
16 being prepared?
17
A. It was
being prepared as new
18 information became
available that was relevant
19 to
include inside this affidavit, that
20 information would be
shared with me and I
21 would include that in
the narrative.
22
Q. Now,
when you say include that in
23 the narrative, were
you preparing an ongoing
24 written narrative at
the time?
25
A. Yes.
162
1
Q. And
where did you keep a copy of
2 this ongoing written
narrative?
3
A. Either
in my briefcase or in my
4 desk inside the
Boulder Police Department
5 situation room were
typically the only two
6 places that the --
that the affidavit would
7 be left.
8
Q. Could
you describe what form it
9 was being kept
in? By example, was it kept
10 in a notebook? Was it kept on separate
11 sheets of paper? How was it kept physically?
12
A. Eight
and a half by 11 white,
13 unbound paper,
typically stapled with a
14 heavy-duty stapler in
the upper left-hand
15 corner.
16 Q. And where were those pages being
17 kept physically, in a
file folder? In a
18 book? What?
19
A. In my
briefcase or my desk. But
20 if you're saying how
were those stored?
21 Yeah, inside a manila-type folder.
22
Q. Was
the folder labeled master
23 affidavit?
24
A. I
don't recall.
25
Q. Was
there any marking on the
163
1 folder as to what it
was that was being
2 contained there?
3
A. No,
but it's very apparent what it
4 is if you go looking
for it.
5
Q. Do you
know how long you kept
6 that master affidavit
before it was
7 discontinued?
8
A. If
memory serves, in the spring of
9 1998 when Beckner
said that we weren't going
10 to make a physical
custodial arrest and that
11 the case was headed
for the DA's office and
12 possibly a grand
jury, that was ceased.
13
Q. Did
Mark Beckner or anyone else
14 tell you what you
should do with the master
15 affidavit that you
had in your possession?
16
A. Not
that I recall. That would
17 have been -- no, not
that I recall; I don't
18 recall any
instruction like that. It would
19 have and likely and
probably did just simply
20 wind up in the at the
time 80-plus case file
21 notebooks in that
room.
22
Q. So you
turned the affidavit over
23 at some point to the
police --
24
A. Yeah.
25
Q. -- to
the other people in the
164
1 police department?
2
A. Right,
that's in -- that's inside
3 the police
department.
4
Q. Okay. Do you know if you made a
5 copy of that for your
own use?
6
A. I
don't know that I did.
7
Q. Okay. Do you know how many pages
8 the master affidavit
was when you were told
9 to discontinue making
it?
10
A. Well,
it was continually being
11 updated and drafted
and pencil marked and
12 everything else but I
would put it at the
13 time that I last saw
it I don't know if
14 anybody ever
continued it after I left the
15 police department,
but 50, 60, 70, 80-plus
16 pages maybe.
17
Q. Do you
know who made the decision
18 as to what to include
in the master
19 affidavit?
20
A. Well,
I did partly, as did Tom
21 Wickman, Mark
Beckner. On occasion, you
22 know, we would run
ideas and thoughts by the
23 in-house legal
advisor, Bob Keatley. Kim
24 Stewart had it for a
period of time and I
25 think she did some
updating or amending or
165
1 suggesting to
it. It was sort of a
2 continuing work in
progress. And when a
3 detective in the room
had information that
4 was relevant to the
affidavit, it would
5 typically be
included.
6
Q. Were
you the only person that
7 physically included
the information or did
8 other people have
access to it?
9
A. Well,
two questions. Did other
10 people have access to
it. Yes. And was I
11 the only one that
physically made inclusions
12 to it? Mr. Hoffman, do you mean by way of
13 typewriting?
14
Q. Yes,
by way of actual handwritten
15 notations or
typewritten?
16
A. Yes,
that's my recollection.
17
Q. All
right. So nobody that you
18 remember made any
physical notations or
19 changes in the master
affidavit beside
20 yourself?
21
A. No. I'm saying others did in the
22 room make physical
changes to it, line
23 throughs, additions,
deletions, et cetera, as
24 information, you
know, became available or got
25 stale or whatever the
case might be.
166
1
Q. Mr.
Thomas, directing your
2 attention now to the
handwriting reports from
3 the Colorado Bureau
of Investigation, did you
4 ever have occasion to
see any of the
5 handwriting reports that were done at all
in
6 the case by CBI?
7
A. Yeah. What they called a report
8 typically was more of
a lab finding. It
9 wasn't in a narrative
form, as I recall, but
10 those were in the
possession of Trujillo, the
11 forensic evidence
detective, but I did have
12 at least one occasion
to look at those.
13
Q. Can
you describe what one
14 typically looked like? Like how many pages
15 was one of these
reports?
16
A. Fairly
short, if I recall. The
17 one that I have in
mind probably ran less
18 than four pages. On the front page was like
19 a CBI logo or
letterhead, whatever they
20 typically manufacture
their printed report on
21 and just simply black
typewritten or
22 computer-generated
ink on white paper.
23 Q. Do you know what sort
of analysis
24 was actually done in
the report of the
25 handwriting?
167
1
A. Yeah, they
-- I remember the
2 language concerning
Patsy Ramsey, which was
3 included in that
report. And then many other
4 people's or people
whose handwriting had been
5 looked at were also
reported in this
6 document.
7
Q. Now,
you say this document.
8 Weren't there more
than -- did they do
9 separate reports for
each individual's
10 handwriting that they
examined, to the best
11 of your knowledge?
12
A. Not
that I saw.
13
Q. So
basically what was it that you
14 saw, a single report?
15
A. Well,
as I described this report
16 probably less than four pages in length
that
17 was very compacted
with a lot of information
18 and not typically
what you think of as a --
19 or what I think of as
a police report with a
20 narrative, but more
exhibit number such and
21 such corresponding to
this, et cetera. Not
22 -- it wasn't
free-flowing narrative of any
23 sort.
24
Q. The
report that you actually were
25 able to physically examine, do you know
how
168
1 many subjects or
persons were actually being
2 discussed in that
report?
3 A. Yeah, many. Many, many, many, you
4 know, 20, 30, 40
maybe.
5
Q. Do you
know whether or not the
6 report drew any
conclusions with respect to
7 the authorship of the
ransom note?
8
A. Yes.
9
Q. Could
you tell me what you
10 remember the
conclusion to be?
11
A. As I
sit here today without that
12 document in front of
me, I recall language in
13 that document that
along the lines, and I'm
14 certainly
paraphrasing, that there was
15 evidence to suggest
that Patsy Ramsey was the
16 author of the ransom
note.
17
Q. Is that
the language that you
18 remember
"evidence to suggest"?
19
A. Yes.
20
Q. Now,
with respect to your book,
21 you make a statement
in your book, I'm trying
22 to find the page, but
I'll just ask you
23 generally, yeah, it's
on page 282, in the
24 next to the last
paragraph on page 282, the
25 paragraph that begins
"Not only did certain
169
1 letters
change." Do you have that?
2
A. Yes.
3
Q. Could
you read that paragraph out
4 loud, please?
5
A.
Certainly. "Not only
did certain
6 letters change, but
her entire writing style
7 seemed to have been
transformed after the
8 homicide. There were new ways of indenting,
9 spelling, and writing
out long numbers that
10 contrasted with her
earlier examples, and she
11 was the only suspect
who altered her usual
12 preferences when
supplying writing samples to
13 the police."
14
Q. Now, the
she in this paragraph,
15 who is the she?
16
A. This
is referring to Patsy Ramsey.
17
Q. All
right. Now, may I ask you
18 how you acquired the
knowledge that you have
19 in this paragraph? How do you know that in
20 fact is what was
going on in her handwriting?
21
MR. WOOD: Let me say
something I
22 don't think that he
stated that he knows that
23 as a fact I think
he's describing what Don
24 Foster said, but I
may be wrong.
25
MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. I'm just
170
1 asking him how he
acquired that information.
2
MR. WOOD: Okay.
3
A. Mr.
Hoffman, surrounding or
4 preceding this
paragraph it's in relation to
5 Mr. Foster's
presentation in Boulder, if I'm
6 not mistaken and his
presentation overheads,
7 examples, et cetera.
8
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) All right. Do
9 you know if anyone
other than Don Foster
10 shared that belief
who was involved in the
11 investigation?
12
A. What
belief?
13
Q. The
belief that there was an
14 attempt by Patsy
Ramsey to alter her
15 handwriting when
asked for exemplars?
16
MR. DIAMOND: Do you mean
among
17 the expert community?
18
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) Among anybody
19 that was
investigating the case that you know
20 of?
21
A. I
don't know if Don Foster shared
22 any of his findings
or investigation with any
23 of the FBI people
that he sometimes works
24 with, but as far as
those people in the room
25 that day for this
presentation in trying to
171
1 recall what Foster
presented and said and
2 demonstrated, that
was certainly where I came
3 away with this impression.
4
Q. Mr.
Thomas, are you aware of the
5 fact that Patsy
Ramsey was asked to give what
6 is known as request
samplers to the police on
7 more than one
occasion during the
8 investigation?
9
A. Yes,
sir.
10
Q. Do you
know how many times she
11 was -- on how many
different occasions she
12 was asked to give
request samples of her
13 handwriting to the
police?
14
A. If my
understanding is correct, I
15 think it was five.
16
Q. Do you
know why she was asked to
17 give five separate
handwriting samples on five
18 separate occasions?
19
A. That
was not my assignment, but
20 given what I knew
through the briefings and
21 the detectives who
were handling that
22 assignment I could
speculate as to why it
23 became known to me.
24
Q. Did
anybody through hearsay or any
25 other way communicate
with you why they were
172
1 asking Patsy Ramsey
to appear on more than
2 one occasion to give
exemplars?
3
A. Yes.
4
Q. Could
you tell me why?
5
A. Yes. Because apparently the CBI
6 examiner, analyst,
expert, had questions or
7 concerns about her
handwriting and
8 similarities with the
note.
9
Q. Did
anybody ever express the
10 belief that she was attempting
to alter her
11 handwriting?
12
A. Yes,
Don Foster.
13
Q. Any
other person in the
14 investigation?
15
A. And,
again, as I sit here, from
16 memory and without the QD examiner's reports
17 in front of me, Mr.
Hoffman, let me think
18 for a moment. No, not that I can recall.
19
MR. HOFFMAN: Since I'm
drawing
20 near, how is my time
doing, does anybody
21 know?
22
MR. RAWLS: You've got 17
more
23 minutes.
24
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) Mr. Thomas, I
25 would just like to
direct you to page 286 of
173
1 your book.
2
A. Okay.
3
Q. All
right. Now, this is a rather
4 lengthy series of
paragraphs and it runs to
5 289 and it's
basically from what I can
6 understand your
theory of how this crime was
7 committed, who was
involved in it; is that
8 correct?
9
A. Yes.
10 Q. And have you had a
chance to
11 review pages 286, 87,
88 and 89 since the
12 book was written?
13
A. Yes.
14
Q. Are
these statements still
15 accurate?
16
A. Well,
I don't know the current
17 state of the evidence
of what may or may not
18 have changed or come
to be known by Mike
19 Kane and the
cops. But at the time I left,
20 this was certainly a
hypothesis that I felt
21 was consistent with
the evidence that I felt
22 was certainly
reasonable.
23
Q. Have
you had any occasion to
24 change your mind with
respect to your
25
analysis and the conclusions that you draw in
174
1 these pages?
2
A. Well,
will you give me just a
3 moment to reread
quickly these three pages?
4
MR. HOFFMAN: In fact, would
5 anyone object if he
read this out loud into
6 the record?
7
MR. WOOD: If you want to
spend
8 your time having him
do that, Darnay, I have
9 no objection
whatsoever.
10
MR. HOFFMAN: Well, yes,
would you
11 mind? Let's do it this way. Why don't you
12 silently read this to
yourself and then I'll
13 ask you that question
again.
14
MR. WOOD: He might as well
read
15 it out loud because
it's on the clock.
16
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) Okay. Then why
17 don't you read it out loud. Begin with
18 "There was no
doubt in my mind that Patsy
19 wrote the note."
20
A.
"'I believe she committed the
21 murder' I told Smit
and proceeded to lay out
22 what I
thought had happened ...
23
"In my hypothesis, and approaching
24 fortieth birthday,
the busy holiday season, an
25 exhausting Christmas
Day, and an argument with
175
1 JonBenet had left
Patsy frazzled. Her
2 beautiful daughter,
whom she frequently
3 dressed almost as a
twin, had rebelled
4 against wearing the
same outfit as her
5 mother.
6
"When they came home, John Ramsey
7 helped Burke put
together a Christmas toy.
8 JonBenet, who had not
eaten much at the
9 Whites' party, was
hungry. Her mother let
10 her have some
pineapple, and then the kids
11 were put to bed. John Ramsey read to his
12 little girl. Then he went to bed. Patsy
13 stayed up to prepare
for the trip to Michigan
14 the next morning, a
trip she admittedly did
15 not particularly want
to make.
16
"Later JonBenet awakened after
17 wetting her bed, as
indicated by the plastic
18 sheets, the urine
stains, the pull-up diaper
19 package hanging
halfway out of a cabinet, and
20 the balled-up
turtleneck found in the
21 bathroom. I concluded that the little girl
22 had worn the red turtleneck to bed, as her
23 mother originally
said, and that it was
24 stripped off when it
got wet.
25
"As I told Smith, I never believed
176
1 the child was
sexually abused for the
2 gratification of the
offender but that the
3 vaginal trauma was
some sort of corporal
4 punishment. The dark fibers found in her
5 pubic region could
have come from the violent
6 wiping of a wet
child. Patsy probably yanked
7 out the diaper
package in cleaning up
8 JonBenet.
9
"Patsy would not be the first
10 mother to lose
control in such a situation.
11 One of the doctors we
consulted cited
12 toileting issues as a
textbook example of
13 causing a parental
rage. So, in my
14 hypothesis, there was
some sort of explosive
15 encounter in the
child's bathroom sometime
16 prior to one o'clock
in the morning, the time
17 suggested by the
digestion rate of the
18 pineapple found in
the child's stomach. I
19 believed JonBenet was
slammed against a hard
20 surface, such as the
edge of a tub,
21 inflicting a mortal
head wound. She was
22 unconscious, but her
heart was still beating.
23 Patsy would not have
known that JonBenet was
24 still alive, because
the child already
25 appeared to be
dead. The massive head trauma
177
1 would have eventually
killed her.
2
"It was the critical moment in
3 which she either had
to call for help or
4 find an alternative
explanation for her
5 daughter's
death. It was accidental in the
6 sense that the
situation had developed without
7 motive or
premeditation. She could have
8 called for help but
chose not to. An
9 emergency room doctor
probably would have
10 questioned the
'accident' and called the
11 police. Still, little would have happened to
12 Patsy in
Boulder. But I believe panic
13 overtook her.
14
"John and Burke continued to sleep
15 while Patsy moved the
body of JonBenet down
16 to the basement and
hid her in the little
17 room.
18
"As I pictured the scene, her
19
dilemma was that the police would assume the
20 obvious if a six-
year old child was found
21 dead in a private
home without any
22 satisfactory
explanation. Patsy needed a
23 diversion and planned
the way she thought a
24 kidnapping should
look.
25
"She returned upstairs to the
178
1 kitchen and grabbed
her tablet and a
2 felt-tipped
pen," and flipping "to the middle
3 of the tablet, and
started a ransom note,
4 drafting one that
ended on page 25. For
5 some reason she
discarded that one and ripped
6 pages 17-25 from the
tablet. Police never
7 found those pages.
8
"On page 26, she began the
9 'Mr. and Mrs. I,'
then also abandoned that
10 false start. At some point she drafted the
11 long ransom
note. By doing so, she created
12 the government's best
piece of evidence.
13
"She then faced the major problem
14 of what to do with
the body. Leaving the
15 house carried the
risk of John or Burke
16 awakening at the
sounds and possibly being
17 seen by a passerby or
a neighbor. Leaving
18 the body in the
distant, almost inaccessible,
19 basement room was the best option.
20
"As I envisioned it, Patsy
21 returned to the
basement, a woman caught up
22 in panic, where she
could have seen--perhaps
23 by detecting a faint
heartbeat or a sound or
24 a slight
movement--that although completely
25 unconscious, JonBenet
was not dead. Others
179
1 might argue that
Patsy did not know the child
2 was still alive. In my hypothesis, she took
3 the next step,
looking for the closest
4 available items in
... desperation. Only
5 feet away was her
paint tote. She grabbed a
6 paint brush and broke
it to fashion the
7 garrote with some
cord." She then -- "then
8 she looped the cord
around the girl's neck.
9
"In my scenario, she choked
10 JonBenet from behind, with a grip on her
11 broken paintbrush
handle, pulling the
12 ligature. JonBenet, still unconscious, would
13 never have felt
it. There are only four
14 ways to die: suicide, natural, accidental,
15 or homicide. This accident, in my opinion,
16 had just become a
murder.
17
"Then the staging continued to
18 make it look like a
kidnapping. Patsy tied
19 the girl's wrists in
front, not in" the
20 "back, for
otherwise the arms would not have
21 been in" the
"overhead position. But with
a
22 fifteen-inch length
of cord between the wrists
23 and the knot tied
loosely over the clothing,
24 there was no way such
a binding would have
25 restrained a live
child. It was a symbolic
180
1 act to make it appear
the child had been
2 bound.
3
"Patsy took considerable time with
4 her daughter,
wrapping her carefully in the
5 blanket and leaving
her with a favorite pink
6 nightgown." As "the FBI had told us ... a
7 stranger would not
have taken such care.
8
"As I told Lou, I thought that
9 throughout the coming
hours, Patsy worked on
10 her staging, such as placing the ransom
note
11 where she would be
sure to 'find' it the
12 next morning. She placed the tablet on the
13 countertop right
beside the stairs and" put
14 "the pen in the
cup.
15
"While going through the drawers"
16 and "under the
countertop" -- "While going
17 through the drawers
under the countertop where
18 the tablet had been,
she found rolls of tape.
19 She placed a strip
from a roll of duct tape
20 across JonBenet's
mouth. There was bloody
21 mucous under the
tape, and a perfect set of
22 the child's lip
prints, which did not
23 indicate a tongue
impression or resistance.
24
"I theorized that Patsy, trying to
25 cover her tracks,
took the remaining cord,
181
1 tape, and the first
ransom note out of the
2 house that night,
perhaps dropping them into
3 a nearby storm sewer
or among the Christmas
4 debris in wrappings
in a neighbor's trash
5 can.
6
"She was running out of time.
7 The household was
scheduled to wake up early
8 to fly to Michigan,
and in her haste, Patsy
9 Ramsey did not change
clothes, a vital
10 mistake. With the clock ticking, and hearing
11 her husband moving
around upstairs, she
12 stepped over the
edge.
13
"The way I envisioned it, Patsy
14 screamed, and John
Ramsey, coming out of the
15 shower, responded,
totally unaware of what had
16 occurred. Burke, awakened by the noise
17 shortly before six
o'clock in the morning,
18 came down to find out
what had happened and
19 was sent back to bed
as his mother talked to
20 the 911 emergency
dispatcher.
21
"Patsy Ramsey opened the door to
22 Officer Rick French
at about 5:55 a.m. on the
23 morning of December
26, 1996, wearing a red
24 turtleneck sweater
and black pants, the same
25 things she had worn
to a party the night
182
1 before. Her hair
was done, and her makeup
2 was on. In my opinion, she had never been
3 to bed.
4
"The diversion worked for seven
5 hours as the Boulder
police thought they were
6 dealing with a
kidnapping.
7
"John Ramsey, in my hypothetical
8 scenario, probably
first grew suspicious while
9 reading the ransom
note that morning, which
10 was why he was
unusually quiet. He must
11 have seen his wife's
writing mannerisms all
12 over it, everything
but her signature. But
13 where was his
daughter?
14
"He said in his police interview
15 that he went down to
the basement when
16 Detective Arndt
noticed him missing. I
17 suggested that Ramsey
found JonBenet at that
18 time and was faced
with the dilemma of his
19 life. During the next few hours, his
20 behavior changed
markedly as he desperately
21 considered his few
options--submit to the
22 authorities or try to
control the situation.
23 He had already lost
one child, Beth, and now
24 JonBenet was gone
too. Now Patsy was
25 possibly in jeopardy.
183
1
"The stress increased steadily
2 during the morning,
for Patsy, in my theory,
3 knew that no
kidnapper was going to call by
4 ten o'clock, and
after John found the body,
5 he knew that
too. So when Detective Linda
6 Arndt told him to search the house, he used
7 the opportunity and
made a beeline for the
8 basement.
9
"Then tormented as he might be, he
10 chose to protect his
wife. Within a few
11 hours,
the first of his many lawyers was in
12 motion, the private
investigators a day later.
13
"That's the way I see it, I said
14 to Lou
Smit." That's how evidence --
"That's
15 how the evidence fits to me. She made
16 mistakes, and that's
how we solve crimes,
17 right? I reminded him of his own favorite
18 saying: 'Murders are usually what they
19 seem.'".
20 Q. All right. Thank you, Mr. Thomas.
21 Now, I want to ask
you, do you still agree
22 with this analysis of
the murder of JonBenet
23 Ramsey?
24
MR. WOOD: Are you asking him
as
25 to the state of the
evidence in August of
184
1 1998?
2
MR. HOFFMAN: No, I'm asking
him
3 whether now he still
agrees based on his own
4 personal knowledge of
the case whether or not
5 he still stands by
these statements.
6
MR. WOOD: I want to make
sure
7 that we understand,
Darnay, because he, as I
8 understood it,
testified that short of media
9 reports and public
statements he doesn't know
10 anything about the
state of the evidence from
11 August of 1998
through September of 2001.
12 And I think in
fairness, we ought to make
13 sure that we are
asking him what he is
14 standing by.
15
MR. HOFFMAN: All right.
16
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) Do you regard
17 the statements that
you make on page 286,
18 287, 288, 289 as
being true to the best of
19 your knowledge?
20
MR. WOOD: We've got a
conference
21 again.
22
THE DEPONENT: Just a
second,
23 Darnay.
24
MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah, um-hum.
25
(Discussion off the record between
185
1 the deponent and Mr.
Diamond.)
2
A. I'm
sorry, Mr. Hoffman. Yeah, as
3 I said, given what I
knew when I resigned in
4 the summer of '98, I
don't know the status
5 of the evidence now but this was a
6 hypothetical scenario
that I purported that I
7 felt was consistent
with the evidence at the
8 time. And unless something is changed
9 drastically or
markedly, that I'm unaware of,
10 yeah, it's still my
belief that something --
11 or let me state it
this way: It's still my
12 belief -- or I still
stand behind this
13 hypothetical scenario
in that regard.
14
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) All right.
15 That's really all I
need to know.
16
Now, I want to ask you about the
17 911 tape which was --
became controversial
18 because of alleged background noise and voice,
19 possible voice
identifications. Did you ever
20 have occasion to
listen to the 911 tape
21 analysis that was
done by a lab in Los
22 Angeles or somewhere
in California purportedly
23 to show that Burke's
voice was on the back
24 of that tape?
25
A. Yes.
186
1 MR. WOOD: He listened to the
2 analysis?
3
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) Did you ever
4 have occasion to hear
the tape and actually
5 hear what the people
were reporting as being
6 Burke's voice in the background?
7
A. Not on
the aerospace engineering
8 equipment but on
lesser equipment inside the
9 Boulder Police
Department, yes.
10
Q. So it
was actually audible on that
11 equipment at the
Boulder Police Department?
12
A. No,
Mr. Hoffman, let me make sure
13 I understand
you. What are you -- what was
14 audible?
15
Q. Burke's
or the voice of someone
16 who could have been
Burke Ramsey talking in
17 the background at the
very end of Patsy
18 Ramsey's, you know,
conversation with 911.
19
A. Well,
you're cutting right to the
20 punch line. There is a long story behind it
21 but, yes, myself and
others listened to that
22 tape and heard this
third voice.
23
Q. So do
you -- were you able to
24 identify that third
voice, you personally?
25
A. Well,
I don't have any training in
187
1 voice identification,
but certainly it sounded
2 to me to be a young
male voice.
3
MR. WOOD: Are you asking
him,
4 Darnay --
5
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) Were you able
6 to draw based on your
own personal experience
7 of hearing this tape
that there was a voice
8 of somebody who
sounded like a young boy?
9
A. Yes,
that was my personal
10 observation coming
away from that.
11
Q. Do you
have any reason to believe
12 that that voice could
have been the voice of
13 Burke Ramsey?
14
A. That's
what I believe.
15
Q. Is it
based on ever having heard
16 Burke Ramsey speak?
17
MR. WOOD: You're talking
about
18 just listening to the
child speak, whether or
19 not he has done a --
that's a sufficient
20 voice exemplar for
testing purposes?
21
MR. HOFFMAN: No, no. I just
22 want to know in the
same way that you can
23 look at handwriting
for, you know, purposes
24 of article 9 --
article 900 in the Rules of
25 Evidence, that
whether or not based on his
188
1 own personal
experience if he's ever heard
2 Burke Ramsey and
whether or not he thought
3 that was Burke Ramsey
based on his own
4 knowledge of what
Burke Ramsey sounded like.
5
MR. WOOD: I
understand. I'm not
6 -- he can
answer. But I'm certainly not
7 acceding to your interpretation
of rule,
8 whatever you're
talking about, article 900.
9
MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. Well, I'm
10 not asking you to
accede. Actually, Lin, you
11 don't really even
have to be involved in
12 this, so quite
frankly it's my question --
13
MR. WOOD: I will because I
14 represent --
15
MR. HOFFMAN: And I don't
know if
16 it's appropriate for
you to always to be
17 trying to clarify it
and put your spin on
18 it. I'm asking Mr. Thomas whether or not --
19
MR. WOOD: Why don't you ask
him
20 a question --
21
MR. HOFFMAN: -- he could
identify
22 the voice as being
that --
23
MR. WOOD: -- that makes
some
24 sense and I might not
have to try to clarify
25 it.
189
1
MR. HOFFMAN: -- of Burke
Ramsey.
2
MR. WOOD: Why don't you
just ask
3 him a straight-up
question. I want to make
4 sure and I have a
right to make sure that
5 the record is
understandable. You may not
6 like that and I'm not
trying to spin it.
7 I'm trying to make
sure we understand because
8 candidly and
respectfully some of your
9 questions are
difficult to follow which
10 apparently --
11
MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. Well, you
12 know, you have that
problem yourself, Lin.
13 So and I've --
14
MR. WOOD: I agree.
15
MR. HOFFMAN: -- heard Mr.
Diamond
16 have to go in and ask
for clarification;
17 lawyers sometimes
have that problem --
18
MR. WOOD: I agree.
19
MR. HOFFMAN: -- not
personal to
20 you or to me.
21
MR. WOOD: I don't disagree
with
22 you.
23
MR. HOFFMAN: The fact is --
24 THE
REPORTER: One at a time,
25 please.
190
1
MR. HOFFMAN: I would like
to be
2 able to ask Steve
Thomas this question
3 without your helping
with the clarification of
4 it.
5
MR. WOOD: Well, just as
long as
6 the record -- go
ahead and ask him the
7 question. I just want to make sure that I
8 have the right to
understand what you're
9 asking, too. But go ahead and ask him and
10 let's get an answer.
11
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) Okay. Do you
12 have any reason to
believe that the voice was
13 Burke Ramsey that you
heard on the tape?
14
A. Yes,
that's my belief and, absent
15 there being other
parties of whom or which
16 I'm unaware in the
house that morning, this
17 third party to me is
believed to have been
18 Burke Ramsey.
19
Q. What
do you base that belief
20 on --
21
MR. WOOD: I think your time
is
22 up, Darnay.
23
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) -- that that
24 voice is Burke
Ramsey?
25
MR. WOOD: Darnay, I think
your
191
1 time is up. Is it up?
2
MR. RAWLS: Yes.
3
MR. WOOD: Go ahead and ask
your
4 last question. I didn't mean to cut you
5 off.
6
MR. HOFFMAN: Given the
fact, Lin,
7 that you've
interjected and eaten a little of
8 my time up, I think
you should allow me
9 that. Thank you.
10
MR. WOOD: As long as it
doesn't
11 cut into my time of what I know today to be
12 3 hours and 50
minutes.
13
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) Mr. Thomas, can
14 you answer that?
15
MR. DIAMOND: It cuts into
my
16 time, Darnay.
17
MR. WOOD: I don't think you
have
18 time today.
19
MR. DIAMOND: I've got time
to go
20 home. Go ahead, ask your question.
21
Q. (BY
MR. HOFFMAN) Yes.
22 Mr. Thomas, is there
any -- what is the
23 basis for your
concluding that the voice that
24 you heard on the 911
tape was the voice of
25 Burke Ramsey?
192
1
A. The
basis of that and very --
2 having to synopsize
this for you,
3 Mr. Hoffman --
4
Q.
Um-hum.
5
A. -- was
Detective Hickman's travel
6 to the Aerospace
Corp. in Southern California,
7 their enhancement of
that garbled noise at
8 the end of that 911
call, those engineers
9 preparing a report
and making findings I
10 think identical to
the detective who was
11 there with the tape,
her returning to the
12 Boulder Police
Department with this
13 information and then
each of the detectives
14 listening on
admittedly lesser equipment
15 inside the Boulder
Police Department to these
16 findings, I concurred
with others that there
17 was a third voice on
that tape that I
18 believed to be Burke.
19
MR. HOFFMAN: Thank you very
much,
20 Mr. Thomas.
21
THE DEPONENT: Thank you,
22 Mr. Hoffman.
23
MR. WOOD: If we can go for
about
24 five or a few minutes
I want to just kind of
25 touch on a few things
that you brought up,
193
1 Darnay, and then we
will break for lunch.
2 Is that okay guys?
3
MR. DIAMOND: That's fine.
4
MR. HOFFMAN: Fine.
5
FURTHER EXAMINATION
6
BY-MR.WOOD:
7
Q. The
FBI analyzed the 911 tape and
8 they did not find any
such language, true?
9
A. I
don't know what the FBI and
10 Secret Service did
because it was my
11 understanding there
may have been equipment
12 that was incompatible
to conduct this testing
13 or for whatever
reason but bottom line is the
14 Secret Service and --
15
Q. The
FBI?
16
A.
Federal Bureau -- yeah, were
17 unable to --
18
Q. They
didn't hear the voice that
19 Aerospace heard,
right?
20
A. I
don't know what they did or
21 didn't hear or what
they did or didn't test.
22 I don't -- I think
one of those agencies
23 didn't even have
equipment to test the tape.
24
Q. So you
think the FBI didn't reach
25 a conclusion with
respect to the 911 tape; is
194
1 that your testimony?
2
A. I
don't know what the FBI or
3 Secret Service
concluded, I know what
4 Aerospace did.
5
Q. And
you also know that the tape
6 was taken to a fourth
group and they came up
7 with different words
from the tape than what
8 Aerospace had come up
with, true?
9
A. I know
that Mr. Hofstrom took the
10 tape to his
brother-in-law for enhancement.
11
Q. Are
you suggesting that his
12 brother-in-law
somehow falsified a report?
13
A. Did I
say anything like that?
14
Q. No,
sir, I'm just asking you're
15 not suggesting that,
are you?
16
A. No,
you mentioned a fourth testing
17 facility and I simply
replied that
18 Mr. Hofstrom took the
tape to his
19 brother-in-law.
20
Q. So for
whatever reason the FBI
21 doesn't hear the
third party, the Secret
22 Service doesn't hear
the third party,
23 Aerospace claims to
hear it and then the
24 fourth group hears
something different; is
25 that a fair
generalization of the 911 tape?
195
1
A. I'm
not sure that the first two
2 agencies ever heard
anything because I'm not
3 sure they ever
listened to the tape. I'm
4 just --
5
Q. Did
you not bother to ask the
6 FBI, I mean, you --
please, Mr. Thomas?
7
MR. DIAMOND: Two questions.
8
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Did you ever
9 bother to call the
FBI and say, gentlemen,
10 what did you find
about the 911 tape?
11
A. I'm
sure Detective Hickman, whose
12 assignment this was,
may have done that.
13
Q. Well,
what, did you ask Hickman
14 what did the FBI
say? You know, we've spent
15 a lot of time with
the FBI, Tom, what did
16 they say? Did you ask him?
17
MR. DIAMOND: Did he ask him
18 what?
19
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) What the FBI had
20 to say about the 911
tape?
21
A. Again,
as I've said it's my
22 understanding, Mr.
Wood, that I don't know
23 whether or not the
FBI or Secret Service even
24 tested the tape. The first testing that was
25 done on it, to my
knowledge, was through the
196
1 Aerospace
Corporation.
2
Q. And
did you -- have you ever
3 tried at any time as you sit here today to
4 make any efforts to
find out about whether
5 the FBI or the Secret
Service even tested the
6 tape and if so, what
their results were?
7
A. I don't
know that.
8
Q. Have
you made any efforts is my
9 question?
10
A. No.
11
Q. As we
sit here today, you've never
12 made any effort to
find that out --
13 A. No.
14
Q. --
right? Am I right? Sometimes
15 the no comes out
differently. The question
16 is you've never made
any such efforts to find
17 out about the FBI or
the Secret Service
18 testing of the tape?
19
A. I have
not made calls or efforts
20 trying to determine
that to the FBI or Secret
21 Service.
22
Q. As we
sit here today you have not
23 done that?
24
A. That's
right.
25
Q. You
slipped once, maybe
197
1 inadvertently, in
referring to Darnay by
2 Darnay as opposed to
Mr. Hoffman. When did
3 Darnay Hoffman first
contact you about his
4 offer to represent
you for free and to absorb
5 your legal cost in
connection with the civil
6 litigation filed against you by the
Ramseys?
7
MR. DIAMOND: Can we just
get a
8 predicate that that
fact occurred?
9
MR. WOOD: Yeah. I've got the
10 New York lawyer, you
know what I'm talking
11 about, don't you,
Darnay?
12
MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah.
13
MR. WOOD: For the record,
you
14 stated that several
months prior months of
15 April of 2001, you offered to represent Steve
16 Thomas pro bono, for
free and absorb all of
17 his legal costs,
right?
18
MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah, at one
point
19 I did, yes.
20 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Right. Tell me
21 about that. When did he contact you?
22
A. I
don't know. What's the date on
23 the document you're
looking at?
24
Q. Maybe
Darnay can tell us that if
25 you don't know.
198
1
MR. HOFFMAN: I don't
remember
2 that either.
3
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) But you know he
4 called you? I don't know that --
5
MR. HOFFMAN: No, I did not
call
6 him.
7
MR. WOOD: How did you
contact
8 him?
9
MR. HOFFMAN: I sent him an
10 e-mail. I don't have a phone number for --
11
THE REPORTER: Wait. One at a
12 time.
13
MR. WOOD: E -mail,
whatever.
14 I'm not trying to --
I mean, you e-mailed
15 him.
16
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Did you get the
17 e-mail, Mr. Thomas?
18
A. This
today is the first time that
19 I have ever spoken,
correct me if I'm wrong,
20 Mr. Hoffman, that I
have ever spoken
21 personally to Mr.
Darnay Hoffman.
22
Q. Thank
you.
23
A. And
yes, I do recall not only did
24 he send me this e-mail
but that on occasion
25 I would be on an
e-mailing list that would
199
1 receive e-mails from
Mr. Hoffman.
2
Q. So it
is true that Mr. Hoffman
3 sent you, Steve
Thomas, an e-mail in which he
4 offered his legal
services to represent you
5 for free, pro bono,
and to absorb all of
6 your legal costs in
connection with any
7 litigation brought
against you by the Ramsey
8 family; is that true?
9
A. Very
generously so, yes, he did.
10
Q. Why
did you not accept it?
11
MR. DIAMOND: He had a
better
12 offer.
13
MR. HOFFMAN: Better lawyer,
Lin.
14 He got a better
lawyer, trust me.
15
MR. WOOD: Why don't you all
let
16 Mr. Thomas figure out
what to say about this,
17 without being
disrespectful.
18
MR. DIAMOND: Where is your
sense
19 of humor, Mr. Wood?
20
A. In
addition to that e-mail --
21
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Why don't you
22 answer my question,
Mr. Thomas?
23
A. I'm
trying to, Mr. Wood.
24
Q. My
question is why did you not
25 accept it?
200
1
MR. DIAMOND: And you can
2 continue.
3
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Yeah, but please,
4 just answer my
question and we can move on
5 to something else.
6
A. In
another e-mail, Mr. Wood also
7 e-mailed me the name
and business address and
8 telephone number of a
Mr. Daniel Petrocelli
9 in Los Angeles who he
also suggested as a
10 fine attorney.
11
Q. Let me
make sure we get that
12 right. Mr. Wood didn't e-mail you
13 Mr. Petrocelli's
name. Are you saying that
14 Mr. Hoffman did?
15 A. Yes, my mistake, yes,
that's
16 what --
17
Q. But
Mr. -- and was that close in
18 time to his offer
with respect to his offer
19 to represent you?
20
A. I
don't recall.
21
Q. Do you
think it was a few days, a
22 few weeks, a few
months apart?
23
A. I
don't recall the timing on
24 either of these
e-mails. Maybe Mr. Hoffman
25 can help me out.
201
1
MR. WOOD: All I know,
Darnay, is
2 I've got your e-mail
that you posted on April
3 1, 2001, where you
stated you made the offer
4 to him several months
before.
5
MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah, I don't
6 remember exactly at
what point after that I
7 also suggested Daniel
Petrocelli who is, quite
8 frankly, a better lawyer than I am in
these
9 areas, so.
10
MR. WOOD: Well, now we know
how
11 Dan Petrocelli gets
some of his business.
12 Let's go on to
something else.
13
MR. HOFFMAN: Through
referrals,
14 Lin, just like most
lawyers.
15
MR. WOOD: Let's go on to
16 something else.
17
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) I want to make
18 sure you very clearly have stated to
19 Mr. Hoffman you don't
know the state of the
20 evidence as of the
present date with respect
21 to this
investigation, true?
22
MR. DIAMOND: State of the
23 evidence? What do you mean by that?
24
MR. WOOD: That's his term,
state
25 of the evidence.
202
1 MR.
DIAMOND: That's his term?
2
MR. WOOD: Yeah, it's why
I'm
3 asking.
4
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) You said very
5 clearly to Mr.
Hoffman you do not know the
6 state of the evidence
with respect to the
7 JonBenet Ramsey
investigation, as you sit here
8 today, the state of
the evidence as of
9 September 2001, true?
10
A. After
leaving the police
11 department, yes, that
concluded my official
12 participation. I have followed the case
13 through the media,
but as far as being privy
14 to anything that
occurred in the grand jury
15 or continued evidence
testing, I'm unaware of
16 that.
17
Q. You
knew the state of the evidence
18 as it existed in the
case as of March 2001,
19 true?
20
A. That
was during the period which
21 -- no, the grand jury
had concluded -- no, I
22 -- no, I wasn't
inside the police department
23 reviewing evidence at
that time either.
24
Q. But
what you did know and you had
25 actual knowledge of
was that a grand jury had
203
1 met for some 13
months and had not issued an
2 indictment against
John and Patsy Ramsey,
3 right?
4
A. I
don't know that. Do you know
5 that?
6
Q. Sir,
was an indictment issued? Do
7 you have information
there was an indictment
8 of my clients that nobody has bothered
9 telling them or me
about?
10
MR. HOFFMAN: Actually, Lin,
11 Patrick Burke has
information that he should
12 have told you about
which he announced to the
13 media that according
to him the grand jury
14 actually took a straw
poll. Why don't you
15 ask Patrick Burke.
16
MR. WOOD: Let me tell you,
17 Darnay, that won't
count against my time.
18
MR. HOFFMAN: Okay.
19
MR. WOOD: But you're right,
it
20 was a straw poll; it
was a vote not to
21 indict. Thank you for bringing something to
22 my attention that I already knew.
23
MR. HOFFMAN: Okay.
24
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Would you answer
25 my question,
sir? It's pretty simple. You
204
1 know that no
indictment was issued by the
2 grand jury, true?
3
A. I
don't know what the grand jury
4 did.
5
Q. I'm
not asking you what they did
6 in terms of whether
they voted or not, sir.
7
MR. DIAMOND: I think he's
asking
8 you --
9
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) I'm asking you
10 whether they issued an
indictment to indict
11 John and/or Patsy
Ramsey?
12
MR. DIAMOND: -- are you
aware of
13 any public report of
such an indictment.
14
A. No.
15
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) You also know that
16 after the grand jury
was dismissed that Alex
17 Hunter stated
publicly that all seven of the
18 prosecutors in the
case unanimously agreed
19 that this was not a
case where they felt
20 that evidence was
sufficient to justify at
21 that time a
prosecution. You know that, too,
22 don't you, sir?
23
A. That
Hunter --
24
Q. Made
that statement publicly?
25
A. Made
the statement that his
205
1 advisors supported
that decision?
2
Q. Seven
prosecutors, not his
3 advisors, seven prosecutors, you know
that,
4 don't you, sir?
5
A. I know
that statement was made.
6
Q. Do you
have any knowledge to
7 contradict the
accuracy of that statement,
8 that is to say that
some of those seven did
9 not so agree as Mr.
Hunter stated? Do you
10 have anything to
contradict that factually?
11
A. You
would have to poll them,
12 Mr. Wood.
13
Q. I'm
polling you. Do you have any
14 information to
contradict that, Mr. Thomas?
15
A. No.
16
Q. Now,
you understand, I trust, the
17 difference between
probable cause to arrest
18 someone and
sufficient evidence to justify a
19 criminal prosecution
to prove guilt beyond a
20 reasonable
doubt. Do you know the
21 difference?
22 A. You say you do. You're asking me
23 if I know the
difference --
24
Q. I'm
asking --
25
A. --
between probable cause and
206
1 beyond a reasonable
doubt?
2
Q. Listen
to my question. Do you
3 understand the
difference between probable
4 cause to arrest an
individual and sufficient
5 evidence to justify a
criminal prosecution of
6 that individual to
prove guilt beyond a
7 reasonable doubt; do
you know the difference?
8
A. I
believe I do.
9
Q. Can we
agree that police officers
10 who are investigating
a crime may form a
11 belief that there is
probable cause to arrest
12 but the question of
who makes the decision of
13 whether there is
sufficient evidence to
14 justify a criminal
prosecution is within the
15 domain and province
of a prosecutor, isn't
16 that the way it
works, sir?
17
A.
Typically, yes, sir.
18
Q. And
there's a third category
19 because you know the
difference between
20 probable cause to
arrest and sufficient
21 evidence to justify a
prosecution to prove
22 guilt beyond a
reasonable doubt and the
23 difference between a finding of guilt, you
24 know that difference,
too, don't you, sir?
25
A. I
believe I do, yes, sir.
207
1 Q. You know the difference between
2 saying somebody is
arrested for a crime and
3 somebody has been
found guilty of a crime?
4 You know that
difference, don't you, sir?
5
A. Yes.
6
Q. It's a
big difference, isn't it?
7
A.
Sometimes is and sometimes isn't.
8
Q. You
don't think there is a big
9 difference between
someone being arrested for
10 a crime and someone being found guilty of a
11 crime?
12
MR. DIAMOND: Are you
talking
13 about the quantum of
proof, sir?
14
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Answer my question.
15 MR.
DIAMOND: Otherwise your
16 question is
gibberish.
17
MR. WOOD: If that's a
18 statement --
19
MR. DIAMOND: Yeah, I object
on
20 the grounds that --
21
MR. WOOD: -- it's an
asinine
22 statement.
23
MR. DIAMOND: I object --
24
MR. WOOD: It's not
gibberish it
25 is very clear.
208
1
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Do you know the
2 difference, sir,
between someone being
3 arrested for a crime
and someone being found
4 guilty of a crime; do
you understand that?
5
A. I've
often arrested people who
6 were guilty of a
crime and were subsequently
7 convicted of a crime.
8
Q. And
you've probably arrested a lot
9 of people who were
not found guilty of a
10 crime, didn't you?
11
A. I
doubt it.
12
Q. You
don't think that happens on a
13 frequent basis?
14
A. That
police officers, or are you
15 talking about me, Mr.
Wood?
16
Q. Police
officers in general. I
17 won't go back into
your background at the
18 moment on that?
19
A. That
innocent people are sometimes
20 arrested?
21
Q. That
people are arrested for a
22 crime and ultimately
not found guilty of that
23 crime?
24
A. I
don't -- I don't have those
25 statistics in front
of me; I don't know.
209
1
Q. But
you don't fight the idea that
2 that happens, sir, do
you?
3
A. I
think --
4
Q. Surely
you don't think anybody
5 that is arrested is
actually found guilty, I
6 hope?
7
MR. DIAMOND: I think his
first
8 question is
withdrawn. Can we hear the
9 second question
again?
10
MR. WOOD: Yeah. Listen
11 carefully. It may be gibberish again to you.
12
MR. DIAMOND: Maybe.
13 MR.
WOOD: It's not gibberish in
14 Atlanta. Maybe it is out in LA on the left
15 side.
16
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) You don't fight
17 the general concept,
sir, an idea that people
18 are arrested for
crimes that ultimately they
19 are found not guilty
of committing?
20
A. There
is a difference between
21 being found not
guilty at trial and being
22 innocent, Mr. Wood.
23
Q. It's
the difference between being
24 not found guilty
beyond a reasonable doubt
25 even where there may
be probable cause to
210
1 arrest, there is a
difference, isn't there,
2 sir?
3
A. I
don't understand your question.
4
Q. You
don't understand, then, the
5 difference between
there being probable cause
6 to arrest compared to
proof of guilt beyond a
7 reasonable doubt?
8
A. Yes, I
have already answered that.
9
Q. You do
understand it?
10
A. For the third time.
11
Q. Is the
answer yes for the third
12 time?
13
A. Yes,
for the fourth time.
14
Q. Thank
you. Four times is a rule
15 of thumb. I like to get it at least three,
16 four is even
better. Thank you.
17
Have you ever had an opportunity
18 to review any of
Darnay Hoffman's handwriting
19 experts' reports,
that would be a report from
20 David Liedman, Cina
Wong and another
21 individual named Tom
Miller?
22
A. No.
23
Q. Do you
know whether they were ever
24 tendered to the
prosecution or to the police
25 department and
rejected as not credible?
211
1
A. It's
my understanding and this may
2 have been even after
I left the police
3 department, that Mr.
Hoffman made his experts
4 available to the
prosecution.
5
Q. And
they declined saying that they
6 were not credible or
do you know?
7
A. I don't
know.
8
Q. You
don't know that. You do know
9 that there were other
experts that reviewed
10 Patsy Ramsey's
handwriting and did not find
11 evidence of
authorship, true?
12 A. Who were those?
13
Q. Do you
think there were not three
14 other people that
looked at this and did not
15 find that there was
evidence to find that she
16 wrote the note?
17
A. I
don't know who you're referring
18 to.
19
Q. Well,
there was a Secret Service
20 examiner, Mr. Dusak?
21
A. Right.
22
Q.
Speckin Laboratories?
23
A. Mr.
Speckin, yes.
24
Q. Right. And there is one other,
25 help me. I can pull it if you want me to?
212
1 A. Alfred, Alford, Edwin Alford.
2
Q. Did
you look at their conclusions
3 and remember them?
4
A. I did.
5
Q. What
was Mr. Dusak's conclusion?
6 A. Mr. Dusak, I believe,
his official
7 conclusion on his
report for courtroom
8 purposes was no
evidence to indicate.
9
Q. No
evidence to indicate that Patsy
10 Ramsey executed any
of the questioned material
11 appearing on the
ransom note, was that
12 Mr. Dusak's
conclusion?
13
A. Among
other things.
14
Q. And he
was a document analyst for
15 the United States
Secret Service, right?
16
A. Right.
17
Q. Then
we have Mr. Edwin F. Alford,
18 Jr., police expert,
examination of the
19 questioned
handwriting, comparison of the
20 handwriting specimen
submitted has failed to
21 provide a basis for
identifying Patsy Ramsey
22 as the writer of the
letter. Is that his
23 conclusion?
24
A. I
remember Mr. Dusak. If you
25 have a document that would help --
213
1
Q. This
is Mr. Alford.
2
A. I
know. I remember Mr. Dusak.
3 If you have a
document that would help me
4 refresh my memory on
Mr. Alford, I don't
5 recall --
6
Q. Not
beyond what I have just told
7 you, but if that
helps you refresh you one
8 way or the other what I've just told you is
9 I believe Mr. Alford
concluded?
10
A. Will
you repeat his --
11
Q. Sure.
12
A. --
what he concluded.
13
Q. The
examination of the questioned
14 handwriting
comparison with the handwriting
15 specimen submitted
has failed to provide a
16 basis for identifying
Patricia Ramsey as the
17 writer of the letter?
18
A. If
that's what the report says.
19 I certainly don't
disagree with --
20
MR. DIAMOND: He's asking
you
21 whether that
refreshes your recollection.
22
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Do you recall
23 Mr. Alford coming to
that conclusion?
24
A. To a
-- yeah, I think that's the
25 conclusion.
214
1
Q. And
then Leonard A. Speckin, he
2 said that he found no
evidence that Patsy
3 Ramsey disguised
her handwriting exemplars.
4 Did you -- were you
aware of that conclusion
5 by Mr. Speckin, a
police expert?
6
A. Among
other conclusions, yes.
7
Q. You
understood enough about the
8 handwriting analysis
that a legitimate
9 handwriting
questioned document examiner
10 analyzes not just
similarities, but also has
11 to analyze and
account for dissimilarities,
12 right?
13
A. If you
say so, Mr. Wood, I'm
14 not --
15 Q. I'm asking you, sir.
16
A. No,
I'm not a handwriting expert
17 and don't purport to
be.
18
Q. So you
can't --
19
A. If
you're asking me about my
20 layman's knowledge
about handwriting science I
21 would be happy to
answer your question.
22
Q. I'm
asking you about your
23 understanding of the
science when you were
24 the, quote, one of
the lead detectives. Did
25 you not listen to
what the experts were
215
1 saying and what their
bases were and did you
2 not grasp the
fundamental idea when you were
3 listening that they
were saying we've got to
4 analyze both
similarities and dissimilarities?
5
MR. DIAMOND: Objection.
6 Compound. You may answer.
7 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Did you understand
8 that to be the case
or not?
9
A. That
was among many things that I
10 understood them to
look at.
11
Q. Thank
you. Do you know the
12 names? You gave me a couple but for the
13 record I would like
to make sure I've got
14 them. I would like to get the names of the
15 Boulder police
officers who took over in
16 effect the Chris Wolf
case. You gave me a
17 couple; let's make
sure we've got them all.
18 Could you give them
to me now on the record?
19
A. I
think Commander Beckner assigned
20 Detective Carey Weinheimer
to complete the
21 Chris Wolf
investigation in early to spring
22 of '98.
23
Q. Anyone
else?
24
A. I
don't know if he was working
25 with a partner or
not.
216
1
Q. That's
the only name you know?
2
A. Right.
3
Q. And I
take it you don't know
4 firsthand or secondhand
what caused the
5 Boulder Police
Department to go back and
6 choose to investigate
Wolf and get his
7 non-testimonial
evidence in February of 1998?
8
A. What
prompted that?
9 Q. Yeah.
10
A. That
he was still outstanding, if
11 you will.
12
Q. A
suspect?
13
A. It's
whatever you want to call
14 him.
15
Q. What did you call him?
16
A. There
were several people who were
17 suspicious in this
case to me and I'm not
18 going to quibble if
we want to attach suspect
19 to Chris Wolf.
20 Q. It's the word you used in your
21 book you referred to
him as a suspect, didn't
22 you?
23
A. As I
said, I don't have a problem
24 with calling Chris
Wolf a suspect.
25 Q. Any -- did Darnay Hoffman or Chris
217
1 Wolf ever make any
demands on you to retract
2 the statement that he
was a suspect in your
3 book or threaten to
sue you for publishing a
4 book calling him a
suspect?
5
A. Not
that I'm aware of.
6
Q. Just a
couple more, then we'll
7 break. Are you aware of Mr. Wolf's prior
8 employment history?
9
A. My
encounter with Mr. Wolf, as you
10 said, yielded little
information. Other than
11 what Jackie Dilson
may have provided, I don't
12 know.
13
Q. Did
you make a copy, I know you
14 said something about
you weren't sure if you
15 had copied it. Do you know whether you
16 actually made a copy
of your master affidavit
17 when you were copying these police files
18 after you left?
19
A. I
don't know. My answer is I
20 don't know.
21
Q. Would
it help to ask you whether
22 you know whether you
relied on it in writing
23 your book?
24
A. No, I
don't think so.
25
MR. WOOD: Darnay, are you
there,
218
1 Darnay? Hello?
2
MR. DIAMOND: Probably a
good time
3 to break.
4
MR. WOOD: I guess we're
going to
5 take a break. Could we do this. I'm going
6 to ask him when we come back -- since we've
7 lost Darnay I'm going
to ask him about five
8 questions or so that
address some areas, two
9 or three of which
were marked as confidential
10 in the Wolf
deposition. And what I believe
11 the protective order
says is that, before
12 doing that, I need to
let him see it and you
13 all will agree that
he will abide by it in
14 effect, sign on, and
keep that information
15 confidential. Can we agree that you all can
16 do that while we're
at lunch?
17
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Did you
want
18 this on the record?
19
MR. WOOD: Is that okay?
20
MR. DIAMOND: I'll talk to
him at
21 lunch. He may not want to be subject to the
22 confidentiality
order.
23
MR. WOOD: Only subject as
to
24 Wolf's testimony.
25
MR. DIAMOND: We will talk
over
219
1 lunch.
2
MR. WOOD: That he has
designated
3 confidential.
4
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time
is
5 12:58. We're going off the record. This is
6 the end of tape two.
7
(Recess taken from 12:58 p.m. to
8 1:54 p.m.)
9
(Exhibit-2 was marked.)
10
(Videographer Intern present after
11 recess.)
12
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time
is
13 2:04. We're back on the record. This is
14 the beginning of tape
three.
15
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD)
16
17
A.
18
Q.
19
20
A.
21
Q.
22
MR. DIAMOND: He's doing
well by
23 some standards.
24
MR. WOOD: He's doing well
by my
25 standards. You don't need to put that on
220
1 the record in case my
wife, present wife, and
2 last wife number four
sees it.
3
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, I'm
4 going to go back and
make sure I'm very
5 clear. The copies that you made of the
6 police file
information before you turned it
7 back into the Boulder
police, you knew you
8 were not authorized
to copy that material and
9 keep it, didn't you?
10
A. Not
necessarily. This was my work
11 and briefcase.
12
Q. So if
it was the Boulder Police
13 Department report and
your briefcase, you
14 thought you had a right to copy it and keep
15 it after you left the
department; is that
16 your testimony?
17
A. If I
later had to testify or if
18 there was a question
about what I returned to
19 the department, that
would satisfy that.
20
Q. Did
you check with anyone within
21 the department to
make sure that was the
22 department's policy
and rules?
23
A. No,
there was little conversation
24 with the
administration after I left.
25
Q. As I
understand it, you remember
221
1 last seeing these
documents and the box that
2 had these documents
in it, the ones that you
3 had been sent from
the Boulder Police
4 Department people
after they learned that you
5 were writing the book
--
6
MR. DIAMOND: I'm sorry,
after?
7
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) I thought that he
8 told me he started getting them in early
9 1999 after he
announced he was writing the
10 book; isn't that
true?
11
MR. DIAMOND: Okay. I misheard
12 you.
13
A. That's
right.
14
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) The anonymous ones
15 from whom you clearly
believe were Boulder
16 police officers?
17
A. That's
right.
18
Q. I was
confused and hopefully it
19 won't happen too
often but it may not be the
20 last time, but as I
understand your
21 testimony, you
haven't looked for that box,
22 you just recall that
you saw it sometime last
23 perhaps this March of
2000, right?
24
A. Yes, I
had that box March of
25 2000.
222
1
Q. So you
don't know because you
2 haven't looked today
whether that box is
3 still in your
possession, custody or control?
4 You don't know one
way or the other because
5 you haven't looked
for it, right?
6
A. Right.
7
Q. I'll
give you a subpoena. I'll
8 get you to
acknowledge as I hand it to you,
9 sir, would ask you to
go now and look for
10 those documents that
at some point are
11 consistent with the
exhibit attached to the
12 subpoena. Do you acknowledge that I handed
13 you that subpoena?
14
MR. DIAMOND: I will. So
15 stipulated.
16
MR. WOOD: Thank you.
17
MR. DIAMOND: You asked us
to
18 consider a request
during the lunch hour with
19 respect to
confidentiality.
20
MR. WOOD: Yeah, but I
realized
21 you had already
agreed to do the
22 confidentiality deal
because of the social
23 security number.
24
MR. DIAMOND: But I've
agreed that
25 I might designate
portions of this deposition
223
1 subject to a confidentiality
order. In terms
2 of subjecting my
client to the terms of an
3 order that he is
otherwise not subjected to,
4 we have decided we
don't want to do that.
5 And so I would ask
you simply just ask him
6 questions and don't
-- refrain from
7 disclosing --
8
MR. WOOD: I'll ask him
whatever
9 I feel is
appropriate.
10
MR. DIAMOND: Sure.
11
MR. WOOD: You can decide or
12 Darnay can decide
what you and he want to do
13 about it but, as I
understand it, you don't
14 agree to be part of
the protective order that
15 is available that
Sean has reviewed prior to
16 the deposition today?
17
MR. DIAMOND: With respect
to
18 third-party
materials, that's correct.
19
MR. WOOD: Would you sign on
in
20 any potential?
21
MR. DIAMOND: What's that?
22
MR. WOOD: You either accept
the
23 order for Mr. Thomas
or you go get a new
24 order that says that
Mr. Thomas' deposition
25 in some part is
confidential.
224
1
MR. DIAMOND: Mr. Thomas
isn't
2 accepting the
confidentiality order.
3
MR. WOOD: Fine.
4
MR. DIAMOND: I may well
designate
5 portions of his
deposition confidential.
6
MR. WOOD: Then when you do
that,
7 you will have signed
on to the protective
8 order.
9
MR. DIAMOND: I disagree,
but
10 that's a matter for
the --
11
MR. WOOD: Well, you will
get a
12 new protective order.
13 MR.
HOFFMAN: That is a matter
14 for the judge to
decide.
15
MR. WOOD: Right, it
is. We
16 won't count that part
against my time, I
17 hope?
18
MR. DIAMOND: We'll count
from
19 2:05 against your
time.
20
MR. WOOD: That won't be
part of
21 it.
22
MR. DIAMOND: Sir --
23
MR. WOOD: Let's go.
24 MR.
DIAMOND: -- you're wasting
25 your time.
225
1
MR. WOOD: No, you're
wasting my
2 time. Let's go forward.
3
MR. WOOD: Did I give you a
copy,
4 too, Sean? I think I gave you --
5
MR. SMITH: I think so. I may
6 have the original.
7
MR. WOOD: -- two copies and
the
8 original that I
handed to the detective,
9 former detective,
excuse me.
10
MR. SMITH: I may have the
11 original.
12
MR. WOOD: Yeah, I just
wanted to
13 make sure I didn't
give you all my copies.
14
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas --
15 yeah, I've got it --
the 911 tape. Did you
16 ever hear any
explanation as to why that tape
17 was garbled in part?
18
A. At
some point during the
19 investigation I
recall the tape coming to
20 Detective Sergeant
Wickman's attention
21 initially because the
911 operator who took
22 that call thought
there may have been
23 something at the end
of the conversation that
24 was unintelligible.
25
Q. I
appreciate that information.
226
1 But I would like to
get to my question
2 because my time is
limited today at least and
3 whether we finish or
not is another issue.
4 But my question is,
did you ever, sir, hear
5 any explanation as to
why a portion of the
6 911 tape was garbled?
7
A. I'm
not sure I understand your
8 question. Are you asking me why --
9
Q. Yeah, was anybody trying to figure
10 out why -- the 911
tape is a tape in
11 realtime, isn't it?
12
A. Yes.
13
Q. And
one would think that you would
14 hear in realtime voices
that are on the tape.
15 You say there is
something garbled. Was
16 there ever any
attempt to find out why this
17 portion of the tape
might be garbled and not
18 discernible to the
human ear without some
19 scientific
analysis? That's my question.
20
A. I
don't think that it was garbled
21 in the sense that
there was a defect in the
22 tape or something,
that's certainly not my
23 understanding. I think the description of
24 garbled was meant to
include the fact that as
25 this phone was
apparently being attempted
227
1 placed back into the
cradle, there was some
2 conversation that was
not as clear as Patsy
3 Ramsey speaking
directly into the phone, to
4 the 911 operator.
5
Q. You knew
the phone from your
6 investigation was a
wall phone, didn't you?
7
A. Yes.
8
Q. Can
you hear any effort on the
9 tape to try to hang
the phone up, a banging
10 or a tapping or
anything of that nature?
11
A. The
call obviously concludes with
12 the line
disconnecting but, no, not that I
13 recall today without
listening to the tape of
14 the phone banging.
15
Q. Do you
know whether the 911 tapes
16 that were being
utilized at the time were
17 recycled in the sense
that they might be
18 taped over after a
period of time?
19 A. I don't know.
20
Q. Was
any effort made by the Boulder
21 Police Department, to
your knowledge, to try
22 to ascertain that
information?
23
A. I
would certainly think they did.
24 Q. But do you know the
answer?
25
A. I
don't have any knowledge of
228
1 that.
2
Q.
Secondhand or otherwise?
3
A. No.
4
Q. Take a
look at your book, if you
5 will, for me, page
15. Are you with me?
6
A. Yes.
7
Q.
"In preliminary examinations,
8 detectives thought
they could hear some more
9 words being spoken
between the time Patsy
10 Ramsey said 'Hurry,
hurry, hurry' and when
11 the call was
terminated." Have I read that
12 correctly?
13
A. Yes.
14
Q. Is
that the truth, is that
15 accurate?
16
A. Yes.
17
Q.
"However, the FBI and the United
18 States Secret Service
could not lift anything
19 from the background
noise on the tape." Have
20 I read that
correctly?
21
A. Yes.
22
Q. Is
that the truth?
23
A. As we
discussed earlier, yes.
24
Q. I
thought you said you didn't know
25 what efforts, if any,
they had made earlier?
229
1
A. I said
in one case at least I
2 don't know that they
had the proper or
3 necessary compatible
equipment to try to
4 enhance this tape,
nor did I know of them
5 ever submitting a
report.
6
Q. All I
would like to know is did
7 the FBI to your
knowledge or the Secret
8 Service to your
knowledge ever send the tape
9 back and say we don't
have the proper
10 equipment to see if
we can lift anything from
11 the background noise
on this tape?
12
A. Again,
we have discussed that and
13 that's my testimony,
that not being my
14 assignment, it was my
understanding that the
15 tape came back from
the FBI and the Secret
16 Service without
anything definitive, but I
17 recall there being an
issue that somebody
18 didn't have proper
equipment to do the
19 testing.
20 Q. Well, you don't say anything like
21 that here. This is definitive. The FBI and
22 the United States
Secret Service could not
23 lift anything from
the background noise on
24 the tape. Is that a true statement or not?
25
A.
Whether, because they didn't have
230
1 the correct machine
or because they didn't
2 lift anything if they
did do some testing,
3 yes, that's a true
statement.
4
Q. Why
wouldn't you -- I mean with
5 all due respect I
don't think you were trying
6 to do the Ramseys any
favors in this book.
7 Why wouldn't you have
said here that they
8 couldn't lift
anything from the background
9 noise on the tape but
that may have been the
10 result of
inappropriate equipment. You
didn't
11 say that or discuss
that in your book, did
12 you?
13
A. If
we're talking about the
14 production of the
book, it was certainly
15 limited. I couldn't put everything in this
16 case into the content
of the book.
17
Q. The
bottom line is we're confident
18 that someone in the
Boulder Police Department
19 can answer the
question about the findings by
20 the United States
Secret Service and the FBI
21 about this 911
tape. That's in the case
22 file, isn't it?
23
A.
Undoubtedly.
24
Q. Good. And I don't believe I
25 asked you this; I
wanted to. Are you aware
231
1 of any attempts to
take a voice exemplar from
2 Burke Ramsey and have
it analyzed against the
3 voice you think your
human ear tells you or
4 because it's a
third-party voice that it's
5 Burke Ramsey, any
efforts to do a scientific
6 analysis by way of a
voice exemplar between
7 Burke Ramsey's voice
and the voice you think
8 might have been his
on the 911 tape?
9
A. I
certainly never received an
10 assignment like that,
nor do I recall hearing
11 or knowing of anyone
else who did.
12
Q. In
December of 1996, who did you
13 consider to be the
most experienced homicide
14 detective in the
Boulder Police Department?
15
A. In the
entire department?
16
Q. I
think I'm pretty clear, sir, in
17 the Boulder Police
Department, the detective
18 department of the
Boulder police.
19
A. As I
asked, that the detective --
20 there is a detective
department and then
21 there is a uniform
department where --
22
Q. I
think my question said in the
23 detective department.
24
A. In the
detective department I
25 think the most
experienced homicide
232
1 investigator was
likely Detective Sergeant Tom
2 Wickman.
3
Q. As I
understand it initially Tom
4 Trujillo and Linda
Ardnt were the two
5 designated co-lead
detectives on the case,
6 JonBenet Ramsey case,
true?
7
A. Yes.
8
Q. And
then after Arndt was removed,
9 did Tom Wickman take
that place, did he
10 become the lead
detective?
11
A. Tom
Wickman or Tom Trujillo?
12
Q. You
tell me whether it was Wickman
13 or Trujillo.
14
A. No,
because there was no real
15 designation at that
point.
16
Q. Were
you ever designated by the
17 department as the
lead detective or co-lead
18 detective on the case?
19
A. There
were four or five detectives
20 who were designated
as primary detectives who
21 worked this case full
time with no other
22 assignments.
23
Q. My
question was were you ever
24 designated by the
Boulder Police Department as
25 the lead detective or
a co-lead detective on
233
1 the JonBenet Ramsey
case?
2
A. No,
after Ardnt left -- actually,
3 prior to Arndt
leaving, that designation was
4 not being used in the
manner you describe it.
5
Q. The
two shootings that you were
6 involved in while you
were with the Boulder
7 Police Department, do
you know whether the
8 department itself
investigated those two
9 shootings?
10
A. I
don't know the inception of a
11 unit called the
Boulder County Shoot Team,
12 when that came into
being but it was either
13 investigated by the
Boulder County Shoot Team
14 or the Boulder Police
Department.
15 Q. Are you aware of any
information
16 relating to Patsy
Ramsey, Mr. Thomas, that
17 you consider to be
incriminating with respect
18 to the death of her
daughter that is not
19 included in your
hardback or paperback book?
20
A. In a
circumstantial case such as
21 this there are
arguments that could be made
22 that there is a lot
of other information
23 contained within the files
of the Boulder
24 Police Department
that didn't fit into -- in
25 this book.
234
1
Q. Thank
you. But I want to know as
2 you sit here today
whether you are prepared
3 to give me the
benefit of any information
4 related to Patsy
Ramsey that you, Steve
5 Thomas, consider to
be incriminating with
6 respect to the death
of her daughter that is
7 not included in
either your hardback or
8 paperback book?
9
MR. DIAMOND: Can you do
that
10 without reviewing --
11
A. Yeah,
without reviewing --
12
MR. WOOD: Excuse me. Can I get
13 him to answer without
you suggesting the
14 answer which would be
totally inappropriate
15 and I don't think
appreciated under the
16 Federal Rules or by
the judge. Please answer
17 the question for me
without being coached by
18 Mr. Diamond.
19
MR. DIAMOND: Mr. Thomas
doesn't
20 need to be coached by
me, sir.
21
MR. WOOD: Well, apparently
then
22 you need to
understand that, don't coach him.
23 Coach him during
lunch, do it in the last
24 two days you had him.
25
Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Answer my question,
235
1 sir. Is there any other information that as
2 you sit here today
know that you consider
3 incriminating about Patsy Ramsey in terms of
4 her being involved in
the death of her
5 daughter that you
didn't include in your
6 book?
7
A. To
answer that big question, I
8 would have to review my reports and the case
9 file to determine
definitively if there are
10 items that were
learned during the course of
11 the investigation
that I didn't put in the
12 book.
13
Q. So you
would be able to do that
14 if you can come up
with this box of
15 materials when you go
to look for it and you
16 find it, right?
17
A. Or if
you can allow me inside the
18 Boulder Police
Department, I'll do that for
19 you.
20
Q. I
think -- while I might have a
21 better chance of
getting the key to the
22 department than you
might, I don't think
23 either one of us is
going to get that short
24 of a court order but
I'll certainly try and
25 if you would like to
try maybe we can both
236
1 together do it; is
that a deal?
2
A. Deal,
Mr. Wood.
3
Q. Okay. We'll go in combined and
4 ask Beckner to open
the door. I would love
5 to see it and I know
you would, too. I'm
6 going to try and go
through and ask you if
7 you would to take a
look at your book --
8 well, before I do
that, let me ask you a
9 couple of other
things.
10
Who is Dr. Michael Graham?
11
A. The
name Dr. Michael Graham
12 doesn't ring a bell
with me right now.
13
Q. He was
not a consultant hired by
14 the Boulder Police Department?
15
A. He may
have been but I'm not
16 familiar with that
person.
17
Q. You
don't recall Dr. Michael
18 Graham taking the
position that the pineapple
19 found in JonBenet's
digestive system could
20 have been eaten the
day before? Does that
21 refresh you in terms
of Michael Graham's
22 involvement?
23
A. No,
since you mentioned
24 pineapple --
25
Q. I
didn't ask you -- I asked you
237
1 about Dr. Michael
Graham.
2
A. I'm
trying to answer the question.
3
Q. Well,
my question is, does that
4 refresh you about Dr.
Graham?
5
A. In
that limited way, no.
6
Q. There
was clearly an indication
7 from a member of the
Boulder Police
8 Department that they
found at least seven
9 doors and windows
unlocked at the Ramsey home
10 on the morning of
December 26, 1996. You
11 remember that, don't
you?
12 A. I've heard that
referred to. I
13 don't know -- what
detective are you
14 referring to?
15
Q. Have
you heard that, sir? Has
16 that not been part of
a presentation made to
17 you?
18
A. By Lou
Smit or Mr. DeMuth?
19
Q. Either
one.
20
A. What
presentation are you talking
21 about?
22
Q. There
were two presentations, one
23 in May and one in June. You attended both,
24 true?
25
A. I did.
238
1
Q. You
took notes, didn't you?
2 A. I may have.
3
Q. You
paid careful attention to what
4 was being said,
didn't you?
5
A. I
believe so.
6
Q. Have
you ever heard that there
7 were seven windows
and doors found unlocked
8 in the Ramsey home on
the morning of December
9 26, 1996?
10
A. I
don't know who the source of
11 that is right now but
I --
12 Q. I didn't ask you the
source. I
13 asked you have you
ever heard it, sir?
14
A. Yeah.
15
MR. DIAMOND: Have you heard
that
16 from any source?
17
A. Yeah.
18
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) From someone
19 connected with the
investigation, either in
20 the district
attorney's office or the Boulder
21 Police Department?
22
A. Or
courtesy of you and the media,
23 yeah, I believe I've
heard that.
24
Q. Trust
me, I wasn't there the
25 morning of the 26th
and I didn't find the
239
1 status of the
doors. I'm asking you
2 whether --
3
A. Nor
was I, no.
4
Q. And I
don't think I was around in
5 May or June when the
presentations were made.
6 You heard that a
Boulder police officer had
7 found as many as
seven doors and windows
8 unlocked in that
house on the morning of
9 December 26, 1996,
hadn't you, sir?
10
A. You're sourcing that to a -- now
11 to a Boulder police
officer detective and
12 that's not my
recollection; DeMuth may have
13 said that.
14
Q. Do you
think Trip DeMuth made it
15 up out of a whole cloth?
16
A. I
don't know where Trip DeMuth
17 uncovered a lot of
things in his
18 investigation.
19
Q. So you
think that there was --
20 you feel like you can
competently say that's
21 not true, that there
were no doors found
22 unlocked or windows
found unlocked that
23 morning?
24
A. I
wasn't there that morning.
25
Q. Well,
sir, you were not but you
240
1 have to rely, as you
say earlier in your
2 testimony, on your
fellow officers, right?
3
A. That's right.
4
Q. All
right. Well, did you go back
5 and ever look to see
if there were ever any
6 reports that would
have indicated that there
7 were as many as seven
windows and doors found
8 unlocked in that
house that morning?
9
A. I'm
not familiar with the
10 detective or the
report you're speaking about.
11
Q. How
about Officer Reichenbach, how
12 do you pronounce his name?
13
A.
Reichenbach.
14
Q. Do you
ever recall hearing about
15 what he said when he
met with Dr. Henry Lee
16 in terms of whether
there was snow on the
17 sidewalk of the house when he arrived that
18 morning?
19
A. Yes.
20
Q. What
did he say?
21
A. He
said, and he also said this to
22 me, that although
there was due to what I
23 think was an 11
degree temperature outside,
24 there was a fresh
frost and maybe a light
25 dusting of snow on
some of the lawn areas,
241
1 but on the sidewalks
and walkways around the
2 house, as he put in
his report, as I may
3 have put in one of my
reports, as we
4 presented to the VIP
conference, that you
5 could not tell
whether or not somebody may
6 have walked on those
walkways in question.
7
Q. Or the
wood chips?
8
A. I
don't recall specifically him
9 talking about the
wood chips.
10
Q. Did
you also get some information
11 from NOAA about
whether or not there might
12 have been snow
expected to be found on the
13 north and west
sidewalks of the Ramsey home
14 on the morning
of December 26th?
15
A. I
think one detective may have
16 gotten that
assignment.
17
Q. And
that NOAA indicated they would
18 not have expected
snow there; is that right?
19
A. I
don't know the results of that
20 NOAA report.
21
Q. You
would have had the ability to
22 look at them when you
were there and
23 investigating the
case, wouldn't you?
24
A. Yes, I
don't -- as I said, I
25 don't recall seeing
that NOAA report.
242
1
Q. What
did the FBI tell you, the
2 Boulder Police
Department, about the
3 credibility of Dr.
Werner Spitz?
4
A. Dr.
Spitz I believe was the
5 assignment of
Detectives Trujillo, Wickman and
6 possibly Weinheimer.
7
Q. They
didn't tell you that, did
8 they?
9
A. No,
but I'm trying to answer the
10 question.
11
Q. I know
but we have a limited
12 amount of time today but if we don't
finish,
13 we can come back and
finish another day. It
14 would be helpful I
think if you try to focus
15 and stay on task with
my question. I don't
16 mean to cut you
off. You have the right to
17 explain the answer
but we can move quicker if
18 we go directly to
answering my question.
19
My question is, sir, did the FBI
20 to your knowledge
make any statement to the
21 Boulder police about
the credibility of Dr.
22 Werner Spitz?
23
A. No, to
the contrary. I'm not
24 aware of any such
statement. And to the
25 contrary, the
detectives assigned to Dr. Spitz
243
1 thought the world of
him and thought he was
2 entirely professional
and credible and I never
3 heard anything attacking the credibility
of
4 Spitz.
5
Q. At
either presentation, it wasn't
6 said?
7
A. No,
DeMuth's presentation, other
8 than attacking virtually
everything, the VIP
9 presentation, I took
that Spitz was an
10 esteemed forensic
pathologist.
11
Q.
Relying on your fellow officers
12 again, right?
13
A. Yes.
14
Q. There
was a Barbie nightgown found
15 in the wine cellar
where JonBenet Ramsey's
16 body was found,
right?
17
A. Right.
18
Q. Was
there any evidence obtained
19 from that nightgown?
20
A. Not
that I'm aware of prior to
21 departing August of
'98.
22
Q. There
was no fiber evidence that
23 you're aware of that
was found on that
24 nightgown?
25
A. Not
that Detective Trujillo shared
244
1 with me.
2
Q. Was
there any blood evidence found
3 on that nightgown?
4
A. Not
that I'm aware of.
5
Q. Any
hair evidence found on that
6 nightgown, to your
knowledge, firsthand or
7 secondhand?
8 A. Not that I'm aware
of.
9
Q. Was
there any decision made or
10 conclusion drawn,
perhaps is the better way
11 to say it, that
you're aware of, from any
12 source, as to whether
the panties that
13 JonBenet Ramsey was
found in had been worn
14 and washed in the
past or were new, in
15 effect, fresh out of
the package?
16
A. I
believe that was after my
17 departure that that
underwear investigation
18 took place.
19
Q. So,
again, the state of the
20 evidence with respect
to that issue, you do
21 not know, true?
22
A. Right.
23
Q. Do you
know whether there were any
24 autopsy photos that
showed JonBenet from the
25 standpoint of being
able to look at it to
245
1 see whether or not
the panties, not the other
2 articles of clothing,
but the panties, fit
3 her or whether they
were obviously not a
4 correct fit?
5
A. It's
my belief from detective
6 briefings that they
were referred to as
7 oversized floral
panties.
8
Q. Thank
you. Were there any autopsy
9 photos is my
question?
10
A.
Without the long-john over pants
11 covering the
underwear, I don't recall seeing
12 any autopsy photos of
just the child in her
13 underpants.
14
Q. Was
there any other fibers found
15 on the duct tape,
other than the fibers that
16 Mr. Hoffman had
referred you to with respect
17 to Patsy Ramsey's
sweater or jacket?
18
A. I
believe so, yes.
19
Q. And
it's also true that those
20 fibers were not
capable or there was no
21 identification made,
no source found in the
22 investigation, true?
23
A. When I
left, I don't believe those
24 other fibers had been
sourced.
25
Q. And,
you know, without going and I
246
1 guess we could do it
if we need to, maybe
2 we'll do it later but
let's just for a
3 moment see if we
can't generally agree, that
4 there were a
considerable number of fibers
5 found on JonBenet
Ramsey's body and articles
6 of clothing that were
not in fact sourced by
7 the investigation,
true?
8
A.
Whether artifact or evidence, yeah,
9 there were a number
of hair and fiber pieces
10 in this case that I
know they, Trujillo and
11 CBI, were trying to
source.
12
Q. And as
of August of '98 had not
13 been able to do so,
true?
14
A. That's
my understanding.
15
Q. And
CBI had at one point come up
16 with a conclusion
that there was a
17 consistency between
fibers found on a blanket
18 in the suitcase that
matched fibers on
19 JonBenet's body or
were consistent with, is
20 that the right term?
21
A. I
heard Mr. Smit and Mr. DeMuth
22 refer to that but I
didn't hear Trujillo ever
23 offer a report or an
explanation concerning
24 that.
25
Q. But
the FBI disagreed with the
247
1 CBI, didn't they?
2
A. On
what point?
3
Q. On the
question of whether there
4 were fibers inside
materials found in the
5 suitcase found under
the window in the
6 basement consistent
with fibers found on
7 JonBenet?
8
A. No,
I'm aware of Smit and DeMuth's
9 position or stating
this consistency of these
10 fibers, but I'm not
aware of a disagreement
11 between the FBI and
that finding.
12
Q. In
your entire law enforcement
13 career, Mr. Thomas,
how many cases have you
14 been involved in
where the law enforcement
15 authorities concluded
that there was staging
16 with respect to a
murder?
17
A. How
many cases am I aware of?
18
Q. Let me
ask you and if you would
19 please help us move
along. Again, if we
20 don't finish today --
21
MR. DIAMOND: Your questions
are
22 not easy. If he asks for you to repeat it
23 that is his right.
24
MR. WOOD: Judge Carnes can
-- if
25 I'm not being clear
let me read it back.
248
1
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) In your entire law
2 enforcement career,
Mr. Thomas, how many cases
3 have you been
involved in where law
4 enforcement
authorities concluded that there
5 was staging with
respect to a murder?
6
A. None
that I can think of.
7
Q. And is
it your term that the
8 ransom note found in
the Ramsey home, have
9 you been one to
describe it as the War and
10 Peace of all ransom
notes?
11
A. I did
not originate that term, but
12 I've heard that and
used it, yes.
13
Q. This
would be the War and Peace
14 of all staging with
respect to JonBenet
15 Ramsey, wouldn't it,
sir, if it's a staged
16 crime scene?
17
A. Well,
I'm relying on the FBI
18 experts who analyze
these cases every day for
19 a living and it was
their conclusion that
20 there was staging in
this crime scene.
21
Q. They
just -- strike that.
22
The FBI that you rely on also,
23 though, told you that
they have not any
24 reported incident of
a parent garroting a
25 child to death;
that's what the FBI told you
249
1 about the garrote,
true?
2
A. With a
ransom note present and an
3 apparent botched
kidnapping where the body was
4 found in the victim's
home, that is correct.
5
Q. Is it
your testimony, then, that
6 there are cases that
the FBI has in their
7 files where a parent
has garroted a child,
8 has strangled to
death a child by use of a
9 garrote; is that your
testimony?
10
A. No, my
testimony is I don't know
11 what the FBI has in their files concerning
12 their investigation
or review of child
13 homicides.
14
Q. Did
you ever ask about whether
15 there was any prior
case that you could study
16 where a parent had
used a garrote to strangle
17 a child; did you ever
ask the FBI that?
18
A. I
don't recall personally asking
19 them that.
20
Q. Do you
know whether anybody in the
21 Boulder Police
Department investigation ever
22 made that inquiry to
the FBI?
23
A. There
were several trips and
24 inquiries and phone
calls and meetings with
25 the FBI.
And I don't know, but it would
250
1 sound reasonable that
one would ask that.
2
Q. If one
asked, no one ever gave
3 you the answer and you didn't find out about
4 it, right?
5
A. They
did explain that they have
6 seen cases in which
parents have feloniously
7 slain their own
children in any number of
8 ways. If garroting was one of those, I'm
9 unaware of that.
10
Q.
Wouldn't that be something you
11 would want to know
since you have a garrote
12 involved in this
case?
13
A. Let me
answer it simply. Again,
14 I don't know of the
FBI, have any knowledge
15 firsthand or
secondhand, denying or confirming
16 the use of a garrote
in a previous child
17 homicide.
18
Q. I
think I understand you. The
19 red fibers, we're
talking about the red
20 fibers off the duct
tape, right, the ones
21 that Mr. Hoffman
asked you about?
22 A. Yes.
23
Q. That
were consistent or a likely
24 match with Patsy
Ramsey's jacket?
25
A. Yes.
251
1 Q. That was the red and
black and
2 gray jacket that she
was wearing?
3
A. I've
always heard it referred to
4 as a red and black
jacket, yes.
5
Q. It's
the one in the photograph,
6 though, that was
produced where they went
7 back a year
afterwards and tried to find what
8 they were wearing,
right?
9
A. Yes.
10
Q. Were
you aware of the fact that
11 Priscilla White owned
an identical jacket,
12 that in fact Patsy
Ramsey bought her jacket
13 because she liked
Priscilla White's so much?
14
A. Until
you told me that right now,
15 no.
16
Q. So I
assume that no request, that
17 you're aware of, was
ever made for the Whites
18 to give articles of
clothing with respect to
19 this investigation?
20
A. They may have been asked to
give
21 clothing; I'm unaware
of that.
22
Q. There
were no black fibers that
23 were found on the
duct tape that were said
24 to be consistent with
the fibers on Patsy
25 Ramsey's red and
black jacket, were there?
252
1
A. It's
my understanding that the
2 four fibers were red
in color.
3
Q. Did
you find Melody Stanton to be
4 a credible witness in
terms of hearing a
5 scream of a child
sometime around midnight?
6
A. I wish
I could have talked to
7 her. I never talked to Melody Stanton.
8
Q. Did
the Boulder Police Department
9 consider her to be
credible?
10
A. This
collective Boulder Police
11 Department, I don't
know what their opinion
12 was of her, but
certainly Detective Hartkopp
13 interviewed her and
whether or not he found
14 her to be credible,
you would have to ask
15 him. But apparently so, he never said
16 anything to the
contrary.
17
Q. In
your scenario that Mr. Hoffman
18 had you read into the
record, your
19 description of the
death of JonBenet Ramsey,
20 do you include in
that description as
21 accurate that there
was a scream as described
22 by Melody Stanton?
23
A.
According to an ear witness,
24 Melody Stanton.
25
Q. So the
answer is yes?
253
1
A. If the
question is, was there a
2 scream and do I
believe there was a scream
3 that this witness
heard, yes.
4
Q. All right. In your description of
5 how JonBenet Ramsey
died, you have made it
6 clear both in your
book and in your national
7 television
appearances that John Ramsey was
8 not involved, right?
9
A. It's
my belief that John Ramsey
10 was not involved in
this crime, you're right.
11
Q. Right. And that it was sometime,
12 as I understand your
description of the
13 events, the next
morning when he was studying
14 the ransom note that
he became suspicious and
15 perhaps concluded,
you say, that his wife was
16 involved, right?
17
A. That's
what I purport in my
18 hypothesis.
19
Q. What
did John Ramsey tell you
20 about who went to bed
first on the evening
21 of December 25, 1996?
22
A. It's a
big transcript. I would
23 have to review it.
24
Q. You
don't know that?
25
A. Who
went to bed first?
254
1
Q. Yeah.
2 A. In the Ramsey family?
3
Q. Yeah,
between John and Patsy.
4
A. I
would have to review my report
5 or I would have to
review the transcript of
6 that Q and A.
7 Q. How about do you know
as you sit
8 here today who got up
first that morning?
9
MR. DIAMOND: According to
John
10 Ramsey?
11
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) What the Boulder
12 Police Department
concluded. In your -- let
13 me tell you in your
description of how
14 JonBenet Ramsey was
killed, what was your
15 position about
whether Patsy Ramsey was in
16 bed or out of bed
that morning when John
17 Ramsey got up?
18
A. Well,
without reviewing multiple
19 transcripts and
reports, I don't recall the
20 -- the Ramseys made
several inconsistent
21 statements --
22
Q. About
who got up first?
23
A. If I
could finish my answer.
24
Q. Well,
if you could stay on track,
25 it would be helpful.
255
1
MR. DIAMOND: Finish your
answer.
2
MR. WOOD: Please make it
3 responsive to my
question about the issue
4 about who got out of
bed first that morning.
5
MR. DIAMOND: If you find
his
6 answer to be non
responsive, your remedy, I
7 believe, under the
Federal Rules is to move
8 to strike it and I
believe that --
9
MR. WOOD: I appreciate you
10 informing me of the
Federal Rules. Now I
11 know that you do know
that some of things
12 you're doing is not
in accordance with the
13 Federal Rules in terms
of your statements on
14 the record.
15
MR. DIAMOND: I'm only
trying to
16 do you a favor.
17
MR. WOOD: Thank you. I don't
18 need your favors, but
I appreciate them
19 anyway.
20
MR. DIAMOND: Is the
question
21 withdrawn or can he
finish his answer?
22
MR. WOOD: I want to go back
and
23 make sure we're on
task by restating it. So
24 I'll withdraw it and
restate it.
25
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) I'm asking you,
256
1 Mr. Thomas, what was
your position in your
2 description of this
child's murder as to
3 whether Patsy Ramsey
was in bed or out of
4 bed when John Ramsey
woke the morning of
5 December 26, 1996?
6 A. From John Ramsey's account?
7
Q. I'm
asking you, sir, what was your
8 position in your
description of this child's
9 murder as to whether
Patsy Ramsey was in bed
10 or out of bed when
John Ramsey woke the
11 morning of December
26th?
12
A. I
believe I write in my hypothesis
13 that she was out of
bed.
14
Q. She
would have to be, wouldn't
15 she? If you believe that John Ramsey, as
16 you say you do, is
not in any way involved,
17 you would have to
believe a couple of things,
18 that she had not gone
to bed when John went
19 to bed, and that when
John woke up, she was
20 already -- she was
not in bed.
21
And you would have to believe one
22 other thing, wouldn't
you, detective, former
23 detective, that John
Ramsey didn't hear the
24 scream at midnight,
right?
25
A. You
have a series of five phrases
257
1 and questions --
2
Q. Let me
break them down one at a
3 time. Listen carefully to me. Under your
4 position of the
description of this child's
5 murder, John Ramsey
did not hear the screams
6 described by Melody
Stanton, right?
7
A. He
never indicated, as far as I
8 know, that he heard
the scream of a child.
9
Q. If he
was as you say he was,
10 totally uninvolved in
the murder of his
11 daughter, he didn't
hear the scream, did he,
12 because if he had
heard the scream, you would
13 have expected that he
would have reacted to
14 it or been certainly
willing to tell you
15 about it?
16
MR. DIAMOND: Objection.
17 Argumentative. You may answer.
18
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) If he's innocent
19 as you say he is?
20
MR. DIAMOND: Objection.
21 Argumentative. You may answer.
22
A. One
could speculate that he would
23 have heard a scream
from within the house.
24
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) You will concede
25 that in fact Melody Stanton
may be right that
258
1 the scream occurred
and that John Ramsey did
2 not hear it, you
would concede that as a
3 possibility supported
by your description of
4 the events, right?
5
A. It is
a possibility, yes.
6
Q. And it
is more consistent with
7 your statements about
John Ramsey's
8 uninvolvement than it
would be consistent with
9 the idea that he was
involved; can we agree
10 on that?
11
A. I
don't understand your question.
12
MR. DIAMOND: I don't
either.
13
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Do you understand
14 it, just so we make
sure?
15
MR. RAWLS: Got it, I'm on
it.
16
MR. WOOD: Thank you. I kind of
17 figured that nobody
on that side of the table
18 would understand it
but everybody on this
19 side would.
20
MR. DIAMOND: Can we ask
Sean?
21
MR. SMITH: I think Sean has
22 already taken his position
that he doesn't
23 understand any of my
questions. I've dealt
24 with him too
long. He's never going to
25 acknowledge that any
of them are
259
1 understandable.
2
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) When was Steven
3 Pitt hired?
4
A. I
don't know if Pitt came to the
5 investigation through
the district attorney's
6 office or through
Sergeant Wickman but I
7 recall Mr. -- or Dr.
Pitt being on scene or
8 being in Boulder,
being involved with the
9 investigation was it
summer of 1997 maybe. I
10 don't know for sure.
11
Q. Was
there any plan or strategy on
12 the part of Boulder
Police Department or any
13 other law enforcement
agencies to try to put
14 pressure on the
Ramseys through the public?
15
A. I
think so.
16
Q. And
wasn't that part of what
17 Steven Pitt was there
to do?
18
A. I
don't know what his employment
19 agreement or what his
motivations were for
20 being there, but he
certainly offered advice.
21
Q. On
that issue?
22
A. Yes.
23
Q. And
isn't it true that Lou Smit's
24 approach to build a
bridge with the Ramseys
25 really was in
conflict with the Boulder
260
1 Police Department's
strategy of putting public
2 pressure on them?
3
A. Yes.
4
Q. And
the FBI was involved, Bill
5 Hagmaier, who I
happened to know from Richard
6 Jewell's case?
7
A. Great
guy.
8
Q. Yeah, wrong on Richard Jewell,
9 wrong on Ramsey,
that's consistent.
10 Mr. Hagmaier was
involved in the formulation
11 of this plan of
public pressure on the
12 Ramseys, wasn't he?
13 A. I believe there were discussions
14 with the FBI, yes,
about how to exert some
15 public pressure on
people who are not
16 cooperating, yes.
17
Q. Part
of that was to try to
18 portray them clearly to the public as
being
19 uncooperative and
therefor appearing to be
20 possibly involved in
the death of their
21 daughter, right?
22
A. I
think it was two different
23 things. I don't think they were necessarily
24 trying to further
paint them as uncooperative.
25 I think they were
using the media to get
261
1 them back in to help
us with the case.
2
Q. Were
they also thinking that they
3 might use the media
to apply pressure so that
4 there might be a
possibility that one of the
5 parents might confess
involvement in the
6 crime? Was that ever discussed?
7
A. That
may have been -- that may
8 have been some
motivations.
9
Q. Do you
believe from your
10 recollections that
that was discussed?
11
A. I
wouldn't disagree with it. I
12 don't have any
concise, clear recollection of
13 a conversation like
that.
14
Q. Did
you ever review reports of the
15 officers that were
with John and Patsy Ramsey
16 on a 24-seven basis
from the time of the
17 discovery of
JonBenet's murder up until the
18 time they left to go
to Atlanta for her
19 burial? Did those officers provide the
20 department with
reports?
21
A. At
least some did, yes.
22
Q. Did
those reports contain
23 discussions of the Ramseys'
actions, conduct,
24 and just
conversations?
25
A. Yes.
262
1
Q. Those
officers were there not only
2 to possibly protect
the Ramseys; they were
3 there clearly also to
have the Ramseys under
4 24-seven surveillance
to ascertain what they
5 might say that might
be incriminatory, right?
6 A. Some of that; most of
it was
7 prior to my
involvement in the case so I
8 don't know what their
instruction was.
9
Q. What
do you believe from your
10 review of the records
in terms of the reports
11 that these officers
compiled?
12
A.
Certainly 24-seven security but
13 these officers
weren't going to ignore any
14 statements or
comments by anyone that may be
15 incriminating.
16
Q. These
officers weren't sitting
17 outside the door
guarding the house. They
18 were literally, as
you know from the reports,
19 they were right there
in the room with the
20 Ramseys, right next
to them 24-seven, weren't
21 they?
22
A. I
believe so.
23
Q. Which
points a little bit more
24 towards surveillance
than guarding them,
25 doesn't it, sir?
263
1
A. In
your mind maybe; I don't know,
2 I wasn't there.
3
Q. What
about in your mind when you
4 reviewed the reports
particularly since you
5 had the benefit of
the substance of what
6 these officers were
saying?
7
A. As I
said, it's my belief that
8 they were there 24-seven
as security but also
9 they certainly
weren't going to ignore any
10 statements. You might ask John Eller about
11 that.
12
Q. Well,
if I have the opportunity he
13 and a lot of others I
would ask. You don't
14 know who ordered the
guards 24-seven, do you,
15 or the surveillance
24-seven, whichever the
16 case may be, or some
combination of it?
17
A. I
think John Eller.
18
Q. And
from your review of the
19 reports, do you have
a recollection of seeing
20 anything unusual
about the family's comments
21 or conduct from these
24-seven police officers
22 who were filing
reports about them?
23
A. Yes, I
remember they included in
24 their narrative
verbatim quotes made by the
25 Ramseys and others.
264
1
Q. Do you
recall any of those quotes?
2
A. I
remember, I think it was in
3 Chromiak's report
about Patsy and her sisters
4 praying, in another report
Patsy making a
5 comment that she
didn't want to live anymore,
6 didn't have a reason
to live anymore. The
7 comings and goings of
the Ramseys, just a
8 general recollection
along those lines.
9
Q.
Nothing in that that I'm hearing
10 that sounds
incriminatory, wouldn't you agree?
11
A. Again,
without reviewing the
12 reports, that's what
comes to me off the top
13 of my mind.
14
Q. Let me
ask you about that. How
15 many cases have you
been involved in where
16 you were analyzing
the demeanor and conduct
17 of parents who had a
child found murdered in
18 their home; what was
your experience in that
19 type of a case?
20
A. None.
21
Q. Do you
have any experience, formal
22 training, in how
psychologically or otherwise
23 one expects a parent
to grieve when a child
24 has been murdered?
25
A. No.
265
1
Q. You
met many times with Fleet
2 White, didn't you?
3
A. I did.
4
Q. And it
was your responsibility and
5 I'm sure you carried
it out in terms of
6 reporting because I
think you get the record
7 so far at least as of
August of 1998 you had
8 filed more reports
than anybody on this case,
9 did you know that?
10
A. I
believe so.
11
Q. And
every time you met with Fleet
12 White either because
he was and he was a
13 suspect himself, was
he not?
14
A. Again,
that ambiguous suspect
15 label, yes.
16
Q. And
either because he was a
17 suspect as that term
is used by the Boulder
18 Police Department or
because he was a
19 witness, each and
every time you met with him
20 and had discussions
with him it was your duty
21 and responsibility to
prepare a report about
22 it, true?
23
A. Not
necessarily.
24
Q. Why
not?
25
A. Well,
initially he wasn't my
266
1 assignment. I think Linda Ardnt shouldered a
2 lot of that. And then after she was removed
3 from the case,
Detective Jane Harmer --
4
Q. I'm
not asking about Harmer. I'm
5 asking about you, Mr.
Thomas. I don't need
6 to know about Harmer
and Arndt. They can
7 answer
themselves. I want to know if you
8 made reports on each
of your meetings with
9 Mr. White. That's my question. Maybe you
10 didn't understand
that one.
11
MR. WOOD: Despite that
12 interruption, you may
continue with your
13 answer.
14
THE DEPONENT: Thank you.
15
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Yeah, answer about
16 your contacts with
Mr. White and whether you
17 made reports on each
of those or not?
18
MR. DIAMOND: You asked him
why.
19 He was explain' --
answering the why
20 question.
21
MR. WOOD: I asked him why
--
22 you're right. I asked him why he did not
23 make a report, why he
did not make a report.
24
MR. DIAMOND: Thank
you. And
25 he's about to tell
you that if you just let
267
1 him finish.
2
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) I assume what
3 you're telling me is
because of Arndt and
4 Harmer somehow what
they did, that's why you
5 didn't do reports?
6
MR. DIAMOND: Why don't you
listen
7 to the answer, then
you won't have to assume.
8
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Why don't you
9 answer my question
about why you didn't
10 prepare reports when
you had contacts with
11 Mr. White and then we
can move to another
12 question.
13
MR. DIAMOND: You can now
finish
14 your answer, if you
haven't completed it.
15
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Maybe now you can
16 answer.
17
A.
Detective Harmer inherited I think
18 the Fleet and
Priscilla White assignment, if
19 you will, and was
friends with them,
20 compassionate to them
trying to do her job as
21 a police
detective. When she introduced me
22 then at some later
date to the Whites, I
23 completed and
prepared reports on contacts,
24 meetings, interviews
that I felt were relevant
25 at the time certainly
and did so concerning
268
1 the Whites. But every time I either spoke
2 or met with these
people, no, I did not
3 complete a written
report.
4
Q. Give
me your best recollection
5 percentage-wise of
how many times
6 percentage-wise you
think you may have
7 prepared reports with
meetings with Fleet
8 White or Priscilla
White, half the time, 75
9 percent of the time,
90 percent of the time,
10 what is your best
estimate?
11
A. I
don't know how many reports I
12 completed and I don't
know how many times I
13 met with them, but
completed several reports
14 I'm sure concerning
the Whites and met with
15 them a number of more
times in which I
16 didn't. So half, a quarter, I don't know.
17
Q. So
there may be as many as half
18 to 75 percent or 25
to 50 percent of the
19 times you met with
them where we couldn't
20 find a report and
find out what you all
21 discussed or what
they said to you?
22
A. As I
said, I don't know. I'm
23 trying to answer your
question as far as a
24 percentage goes.
25
Q. I take
it if they gave you any
269
1 significant
information as it would apply to
2 the investigation of
JonBenet's murder you
3 would have prepared a
report, true?
4
A. And I
did at times.
5
Q. So we
can at least know that any
6 meeting you had with
Priscilla White or Fleet
7 White by phone, in
person or otherwise, if
8 there was any
significant information about
9 the case, you would
have prepared a report,
10 true?
11
A. Most
likely, yes.
12
Q. Why
would you not, if they had
13 given you significant
information about the
14 case, why would you
not prepare a report?
15
A. Well,
again at the time and
16 standing in those
shoes, you know, three,
17 four years ago, if it
was significant at the
18 time and I brought it
back to the police
19 department and it was
significant, yes,
20 absolutely I think I
would prepare a report.
21
Q. Fleet
White tell you that when he
22 was downstairs in the
basement with John
23 Ramsey that John
Ramsey went into the wine
24 cellar room and
turned on what he called a
25 neon light and then
cried out, my baby; did
270
1 Fleet White tell you
that?
2
A. As to
the matter of flipping on
3 the light --
4
Q. Yes,
sir.
5 A. -- yeah, I don't
recall that.
6
Q. Do you
have any knowledge as you
7 sit here today to
deny it?
8
A. I
would look at my report before
9 I gave you a
definitive answer.
10
Q. Whose
idea was it to go down to
11 the basement first
after Linda Arndt suggested
12 to Fleet White that
she ought to keep John
13 busy and they could
go search the house.
14 And as I recall,
Fleet White didn't really
15 want to go tell John
that himself and asked
16 Linda Arndt to
suggest it to him. Does that
17 scenario sound
familiar to you and accurate?
18 A. No.
19
Q. Not at
all?
20
A. No,
sir.
21
Q. How is
it inaccurate?
22
A.
Detective Arndt's description of
23 that was that she
gathered Fleet White to
24 occupy a distracted
John Ramsey to keep his
25 mind busy and
instructed him to search the
271
1 house in her words
from top to bottom. Upon
2 which time Arndt's
recollection to me was
3 that it was Ramsey
who led the two men
4 downstairs.
5
Q. What
was Fleet White's recollection
6 to you about who made
the decision to start
7 down in the basement?
8
A. I
don't know that -- again,
9 without reviewing my
reports and my interview
10 with Fleet, but
that's not today, consistent
11 -- no, Fleet White
hasn't indicated to me
12 that he was the
leader going downstairs.
13
Q. Are
you telling me if Linda Arndt
14 says, listen, I want
you two guys to go over
15 here and I want you
to search this house
16 from top to bottom,
you think that was -- is
17 to be interpreted as
saying I want you to
18 start at the top and
go to the bottom or
19 does that really say
I want you to search
20 this entire
place? What do you think is the
21 more reasonable way
to interpret that
22 statement search the
house top to bottom?
23
A. You
would have to ask Linda
24 Arndt --
25
Q. You
said you did?
272
1
A. -- but
her -- I did and her
2 comment to me was,
quote, From top to bottom
3 and the indication I took away from it was
4 that her instruction
was to search the house
5 from top to bottom.
6
THE DEPONENT: Chuck, can we
take
7 a break?
8 MR.
DIAMOND: When you get to a
9 convenient stopping
point.
10
MR. WOOD: If he wants it
take a
11 break I'm fine. We will take it right now.
12
THE DEPONENT: Thank you.
13
MR. WOOD: Any time you want
to
14 do that, Mr. Thomas,
don't hesitate to ask.
15
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time
is
16 2:57. We're going off the record.
17 (Recess taken
from 2:57 p.m. to
18 3:05 p.m.)
19
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time
is
20 3:05. We're back on the record.
21
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, were
22 the sheets on
JonBenet's bed collected on the
23 26th of December for
forensic testing?
24
A. I was
told they were.
25
Q. And
what tests were performed on
273
1 them?
2
A. I
don't know. Detective Trujillo
3 had that assignment.
4
Q. Was
there any test that you're
5 aware of that
indicated the presence of urine
6 on those sheets?
7
A.
Detective Trujillo imparted to me
8 that he had learned
or believed that there
9 was not a presumptive
test for urine
10 according to the CBI.
11
Q. Were
they wet?
12
A. When?
13
Q. That
morning. Did --
14
A.
Unknown.
15
Q. -- you
ask? Did you ask any of
16 the officers there,
hey, by the way, were the
17 sheets on JonBenet's
bed wet? Did you ask
18 that question of
anybody?
19
A. I did
not.
20
Q. Do you
know if anybody else did?
21 A. I don't know.
22
Q. You
don't know the answer to
23 whether they were wet
or not?
24
A. I have
been told that they were
25 urine stained.
274
1
Q. Who
told you they were urine
2 stained?
3
A.
Detective Trujillo, Detective
4 Wickman.
5
Q. Have
you seen the photographs of
6 the sheets?
7
A. It
depends on which photographs
8 you're talking about.
9
Q. Of her
sheets, of the bed.
10
MR. DIAMOND: Have you seen
any.
11
A. Crime
scene photographs, yes.
12
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Did they say they
13 could smell urine?
14
A. I have
been told that CBI says,
15 yes, those sheets
which are still in evidence
16 smell urine stained.
17
Q. And
did they stain because --
18 well, you don't have
kids, but I don't know
19 if you've ever had a
bed-wetting accident but
20 when you have
children one day you'll
21 probably know this to
be true, urine stained
22 sheets, were these
stained, have you seen
23 them?
24
A. I have
not seen the sheets.
25
Q. I mean, you write -- you
have
275
1 written in your book
that JonBenet wet the
2 bed. What I want to know is what evidence
3 supports that
statement that you are aware of
4 and that you found
out about?
5
A. Urine
stained sheets, the plastic
6 bed fitting and the
diapers halfway out of
7 the cabinet.
8 Q. The diapers had urine on them?
9
A. That's
not what I said.
10
Q. Well,
I'm -- diaper halfway out of
11 the cabinet shows
that the sheets were wet or
12 that she wet the bed?
13
A. No, I
think you asked me what led
14 me to believe that
she may have wet the bed.
15
Q. Well,
I mean it seems to me that
16 the answer is pretty
simple. Did you ever
17 go look at the
sheets? They were there for
18 your viewing if you
wanted to, weren't they?
19
A. No,
they were at CBI.
20
Q. You
could have picked up the phone
21 and asked somebody at
CBI about the test on
22 them, couldn't you?
23
A. No,
Detective Trujillo told us.
24
Q. Did
you ever see the written
25 report on that
finding by CBI?
276
1
A. I
don't know that CBI did a
2 report on whether or
not the sheets were
3 urine stained.
4
Q. Surely
you're not telling me that
5 the CBI's forensic
testers performed, the only
6 test was to smell and
look at the sheets?
7
A. As I
said, I have been told that
8 there is not a
presumptive test for urine.
9
Q. How
about for the substances that
10 make up or are found
in urine?
11
A. I have
no training or knowledge of
12 that.
13
Q. How
big was the area of the
14 sheets where they
were urine stained or wet?
15
A. I
don't know.
16
Q. Isn't
there something that
17 describes that, a
report?
18
A. Urine
stained sheets according to
19 Trujillo.
20
Q. Take a
look at page 146 of your
21 book, please. Down at the paragraph that
22 starts "John
Meyer." Do you follow me?
23
A. Yes.
24
Q.
"John Meyer, the Boulder County
25 coroner, had barely
begun his autopsy findings
277
1 before Lee questioned
the urine stains found
2 on the crotch of the
long-john pants and the
3 panties beneath
them." Have I read that
4 correctly?
5
A. Yes.
6
Q. To put
this into context, this
7 would have been
during the VIP explanation or
8 conference, right?
9
A. No, I
don't believe so.
10
Q. I'm
sorry, when do you believe
11 this event took place
where Meyer was going
12 through the autopsy
findings where Henry Lee
13 was present?
14
A. I
believe this was in 1997 at the
15 Boulder Police
Department.
16
Q. Do you
know when in 1997?
17
A. My
best guess would be maybe
18 March, February.
19
Q.
Reading on. "Were
there
20 corresponding stains
on the bed sheets? We
21 didn't know, although
when the crime became a
22 murder instead of a
kidnapping, those sheets
23 should have been
promptly collected for
24 testing." Have I read that correctly?
25
A. Yes.
278
1
Q. Well,
you didn't know in February,
2 are you telling me
that you found out
3 subsequent in time
that the sheets were wet?
4
When did you find out,
5 Mr. Thomas --
6
MR. DIAMOND: Go ahead.
7
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Let me -- why
8 don't you just tell
me, when did you first
9 find out that the
sheets were wet?
10
A. I do not think the sheets were
11 collected
promptly. I think it was after the
12 fact. And one of the questions of this
13 investigation was
that no one had checked the
14 bed on the morning of
the 26th prior to a
15 wet bed possibly
drying whether or not the
16 bed was wet. But the sheets nonetheless were
17 collected and
described to me as being urine
18 stained and just
recently saw something
19 corroborating that
when Mr. Smit appeared on
20 the Today Show and
there was a comment from
21 the CBI about that.
22
Q. Traces
of creatinine were found;
23 is that what you're
talking about?
24
A. I
don't think that is what they
25 said on the NBC show.
279
1
Q. What
did they say?
2
A. I
think it said a CBI source said
3 the sheets were or
appeared to be urine
4 stained.
5
Q. Let's
go back and find out not so
6 much what NBC was
talking about. Let's find
7 out what the police
knew. Were the sheets
8 collected on December
26th, 1996 or not?
9
A. They
were -- I don't know. I
10 wasn't there.
11
Q. What
did you find out about it?
12
A. That
at some point during the ten
13 days subsequent to
December 26, 1996, when
14 the house was a crime
scene, those sheets
15 were collected.
16
Q. At
such time as they would have,
17 if wet, been dry; is
that what you're telling
18 me?
19
A.
Possibly.
20
Q. What
was your understanding as to
21 Chris Wolf's
employment at the time you first
22 began to investigate
him in January of 1997?
23
A. Again,
as I said, just what Jackie
24 Dilson had supplied
verbally.
25
Q. What
was that?
280
1
A. And
that was, I think she
2 described him as
either a current or a
3 one-time exotic
dancer.
4
Q. What
did she say that meant? Did
5 you say what does an
exotic dancer do, Ms.
6 Dilson; did you ask
her that?
7
A. No; I
assumed it was a stripper.
8
Q. Did
you ever to your knowledge
9 with the Boulder
Police Department while
10 thoroughly
investigating Mr. Wolf ever obtain
11 any indication that
he might have been
12 involved in illegal
sexual acts for money?
13
A. Again,
he wasn't cooperative with
14 me and Gosage in our attempt, so I don't
15 know that.
16
Q. But
you stayed on him for a year
17 according to your
book?
18
A. He
remained on this list, if you
19 will, for
approximately a year.
20
Q. And
you stayed on him because you
21 put up with Jackie
Dilson for a year you
22 said in your book,
didn't you?
23
A. Two
parts, yes, I put up with
24 Jackie Dilson for a
year, but Chris Wolf was
25 -- that assignment
was reassigned.
281
1
Q. Well, but
again relying on your
2 other police
officers, did you ever learn
3 anything about any
information compiled by the
4 thorough
investigation efforts on Chris Wolf
5 that would in any way
indicate that Mr. Wolf
6 might have performed
such acts as, let's say,
7 go into an all-male
strip party and allowing
8 members at the party,
men, to perform oral
9 sex on him?
10
A. No, if you're suggesting if I was
11 aware that there were
allegations that
12 Mr. Wolf was engaged
in male prostitution or
13 hustling, I was
unaware of that until now.
14
Q. I'm
not making an allegation. I'm
15 asking you what your
investigation found. I
16 am asking you if
there was any indication of
17 any such conduct by
Mr. Wolf. Any indication
18 that Mr. Wolf ever
worked at a photography
19 company where he took
pictures of children,
20 team sports ages as
young as four to 15, 14,
21 15 years of age; did
you get any information
22 about that?
23
A. Again,
I was not successful with
24 my attempts at
interviewing Mr. Wolf, so, no,
25 I did not know that.
282
1
Q. Did
you ever ask -- in the
2 thorough
investigation, though, that your
3 officers that you
rely on conducted, did you
4 ever find out whether
there was any
5 indication that Mr.
Wolf might be a user of
6 illegal drugs at the
time frame of '94, '95,
7 '96?
8
A. Again,
I have told you, I don't
9 know the breadth or
depth of Weinheimer's
10 investigation prior
to clearing him.
11
Q. But
relying on Weinheimer in this
12 case and others as
you did, right --
13
A.
(Deponent nods head.)
14
Q. -- you
would have fully expected
15 Detective Weinheimer
in a thorough
16 investigation to get
those kinds of
17 information, or at
least to get details about
18 Mr. Wolf's lifestyle
and prior employment and
19 questions about
whether he used drugs. Those
20 would be part of a
thorough investigation
21 into this man's
background, wouldn't they,
22 sir?
23
A. He may
have.
24
Q. Isn't
that what you expected him
25 to do?
283
1
A.
Possibly unless he had other
2 reasons to discount
Mr. Wolf.
3
Q. Well,
sir, if you had been in
4 charge of Mr. Wolf's
investigation that you
5 say you were not, if
he had been assigned to
6 you, you would have
gone back and done that
7 type of a thorough
background investigation,
8 wouldn't you?
9
A. Not
necessarily, Mr. Wood. If,
10 for example, in the
first day, a detective
11 was able to
corroborate an alibi for
12 Mr. Wolf, then you
likely would not have gone
13 to all this extra
trouble.
14
Q. Except
here you know that would be
15 impossible since the
only alibi he could have
16 offered would be to
have been in the house
17 with a woman who thought
he was involved in
18 the murder?
19
A. No. Because Ms. Dilson made that
20 allegation. I did not have his side of the
21 story. He may very well have put himself at
22 a different location
with an independent
23 witness.
24
Q.
Apparently that hadn't happened
25 here because you know
that into 1998 Mr. Wolf
284
1 was still being
investigated by the Boulder
2 Police Department as
a suspect in this case
3 giving
non-testimonial evidence, hair, fiber,
4 handwriting, right?
5 A. Correct.
6
Q. That
would indicate the alibi
7 didn't get him off
the hook in terms of
8 investigation for
over a year, wouldn't it,
9 sir?
10
A.
Correct.
11
MR. DIAMOND: You're
assuming
12 there was an
alibi. I don't know if there
13 is any mention of
that --
14
MR. WOOD: Yeah, I'm just
15 following up on the
question of whether he
16 speculated there
might be an alibi. Listen,
17 we don't need to
waste time, you know.
18 You've got somewhere
to be at 6:30 in terms
19 of some friends
picking you up. Let's go
20 ahead.
21
MR. DIAMOND: Thank you.
22
MR. WOOD: I'm trying to
make
23 that time frame.
24
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Did you interview
25 Linda Arndt at any
time subsequent to the
285
1 murder of JonBenet
Ramsey?
2
A.
Successfully and at times
3 unsuccessfully, yes.
4 Q. In the successful
interviews, did
5 you prepare reports?
6
A. No.
7
Q. Would
that be because there was
8 nothing significant
said to you during those
9 interviews by her?
10
A.
Typically police don't prepare, at
11 least it's been my
experience, prepare reports
12 when simply speaking
to or asking for a
13 clarification from a
fellow officer.
14 Q. I was talking about
an interview
15 more than a
clarification.
16
A. No,
did I ever sit down with her
17 for a formal
interview? No.
18
Q. Did
you ever try to?
19
A. No,
when I had questions, it was
20 fairly routine just
to go to the detective in
21 question and make
your inquiry.
22
Q. Has
Fleet White ever made any
23 statement to you
about his opinion on who
24 killed JonBenet
Ramsey?
25
A. Mr.
White has always been very
286
1 careful with his
language around me, as is
2 his wife and I don't
know that I could sit
3 here and say today
that he has come out and
4 made a declaration as
to who he believes
5 killed JonBenet
Ramsey. But the tone and
6 inferences of some of these conversations
made
7 it fairly clear to
me.
8
Q. You
think you understood from the
9 tone and inferences
what he was trying to say
10 but not saying directly;
is that your
11 testimony?
12
A. I
think I believe that I know who
13 Fleet has in mind as
the offender in this
14 case.
15
Q. Why
don't you just ask him?
16
A. I did
not, that I recall, ask him
17 outright who he
thought did it.
18
Q. I
mean, you've talked to him since
19 you left the Boulder
Police Department,
20 haven't you?
21 A. Yes.
22
Q. When
is the last time you talked
23 with Fleet White?
24
A. I
think I last saw them in
25 probably July or
August of 2000 and then
287
1 again had a pleasant
hallway conversation in
2 Jefferson County,
Colorado, outside a
3 courtroom in the last
couple months.
4
Q. What
was the nature of your seeing
5 him in July of 2000?
6
A. A
personal visit.
7
Q.
Personal, but tell me, please, if
8 you would, the nature
of the visit?
9
A. I think I had finished a carpentry
10 job up on -- in that
part of the world and
11 in the late afternoon
or early evening, drove
12 by their house to say
hello and they invited
13 me to stay for dinner.
14
Q.
Drinks?
15
A. I
don't really drink.
16
Q.
Whether you really drink or not --
17 most people either
drink or they don't drink.
18 I don't know about I
don't really drink.
19 That sounds like you
might occasionally take
20 a glass of wine or
drink, I don't know. Do
21 you?
22
A. I
won't drink three beers in a
23 year's time.
24 Q. Did you have a glass
of wine with
25 the Whites that night
you had dinner?
288
1
A. No.
2
Q. Did they?
3
A. I
don't know whether or not they
4 had alcohol.
5
Q. How
many times do you think you've
6 seen them on a social
basis since you left
7 the department in
August of 1998?
8
A. Two or
three maybe.
9
Q. And
one was the dinner in July of
10 2000. What were the other two occasions?
11
A. Post
resignation in August of '98,
12 maybe a time or two in 1999, I'm not sure.
13
Q. What
were the occasions? You had
14 dinner one time. What were the other social
15 occasions; do you
recall what they were?
16
A. That
was the only time I ever ate
17 with the people.
18
Q. What
were the other social
19 occasions, sir, what
did you do with them?
20
A.
Probably just stopped by their
21 house and said
hello. I didn't meet them at
22 other locations.
23
Q. Do you
consider Fleet and
24 Priscilla White
personal friends of yours?
25
A. I
don't know how I would
289
1 characterize these
people who I have a lot of
2 compassion for.
3
Q. Do you
know what you consider
4 someone -- do you know
what it is to
5 consider someone a
personal friend of yours?
6
A. Yes.
7
Q. Do
they fall in that category or
8 not?
9
A. It's
an unusual characterization.
10 I have never had a
relationship with somebody
11 that I met wearing
one hat and continued that
12 in this context. So if you're asking me am
13 I friendly and would
I consider myself
14 friends with these people, yes.
15
Q. Look
at page 25 of your book for
16 me if you would,
please, Mr. Thomas. Right
17 here (indicating)
kind of give you a visual.
18
MR. DIAMOND: Do you see
that,
19 Darnay?
20
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) "In the sun room
21 Patsy Ramsey examined
a second-generation
22 photocopy of the
ransom note, a smeary
23 version that showed
little more than the dark
24 printed words. Rather than commenting on the
25 words and contents,
she told one of her
290
1 friends that the note
was written on the same
2 kind of paper she had
in her kitchen."
3
Have I read that correctly?
4
A. Yes.
5
Q. Who
was the friend that she told
6 that to?
7
A. This
was from Barb Fernie.
8
Q. And
then "Police would wonder how
9 she could tell since
they saw no
10
similarities." Have I
read that correctly?
11 A. Yes.
12
Q. You're
talking about police saw no
13 similarities between
the second-generation
14 photocopy and the
actual ransom note itself?
15
A. No,
trying to source a Xerox copy
16 back to a particular
note pad in the kitchen.
17
Q. The
police couldn't tell the --
18 couldn't see the
similarity of the Xerox copy
19 and the note pad,
right?
20
A. Right.
21
Q. They
would wonder how Patsy could
22 tell there was a
similarity, right?
23
A. How
one would make that
24 suggestion, how a
Xerox photocopy of a rather
25 bland, generic piece
of paper on which the
291
1 ransom note was
written may have had its
2 genesis from a tablet
in the kitchen.
3
Q. Not that it had its genesis, but
4 that it was similar,
right? It was written
5 on the same kind of
paper?
6
A. The
Xerox copy did not leave me
7 with that impression,
that it did not strike
8 me that way.
9
Q. Did
that seem suspicious to you of
10 Patsy Ramsey?
11
A. A bit.
12
Q. Did
you ever stop and consider
13 that she might have
made the comment about
14 the similarity
because she, sir, had seen the
15 original of the
ransom note prior in time?
16
A. But I
think in this context she
17 was looking at a
photocopy.
18 Q. So you're telling me
that she was
19 trying to say that
from the photocopy she
20 thought that it was
similar. You don't think
21 that she might have
had the benefit of
22 knowing what the
actual note looked like in
23 terms of the
paper? Would you concede that
24 maybe that might be
an inaccurate assumption
25 on your part, sir,
you know, what you thought
292
1 was suspicious wasn't
suspicious at all?
2
A. No,
I'm simply stating what struck
3 the detectives in
wonder is we thought that
4 Barb Fernie's
statement was unusual, given
5 this context.
6
Q. On
pages 26 and 27 of your book,
7 starting with
Detective Arndt -- well,
8 actually it starts at
page 25 "Time was
9 passing
swiftly." For the next couple
of
10 pages, and the
content is not so much what
11 I'm focusing on. I just want to know, you
12 talk a lot about
Arndt and observations that
13 she made. Was the basis for those comments
14 that you made about
her reports?
15
A.
Primarily, because at one point
16 she discontinued
talking to some of us.
17
Q. She
actually did more than that.
18 She told you that she
didn't have any
19 recollection anymore
about what she saw that
20 day, didn't she?
21
A. She
made that statement or
22 something very close
to that.
23
Q. Page
35, Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, do
24 you know who -- did
you ever interview Linda
25 Hoffmann-Pugh?
293
1
A. No, sir.
2
Q. You
never had the opportunity to
3 judge her credibility
yourself to see whether
4 she might, in your
opinion, like Jackie
5 Dilson might be
somewhat unstable or not
6 credible?
7
A. I
don't know that I've ever met
8 Linda Hoffmann-Pugh,
no.
9
Q. Do you
know how many days a week
10 Linda Hoffmann-Pugh
worked for the Ramsey
11 family?
12
A.
Without reviewing reports, no, I
13 don't.
14
Q. Do you
know what time of the
15 morning she would get
there and how long she
16 would stay?
17 A. Again, without reviewing reports
18 concerning Ms.
Hoffmann-Pugh, I do not.
19
Q. Do you
think you had some of
20 those reports about
Ms. Hoffmann-Pugh in your
21 materials that you copied
and after you left
22 the department or
received from the Boulder
23 Police Department
after you left the
24 department?
25
A. I
don't know.
294
1
Q. We can
only tell when we find
2 them, right, that
would tell us more
3 information about
what you know about Linda
4 Hoffmann-Pugh, true?
5 A. Or again if we can
work our way
6 into the police
department.
7
Q. Did
you ever interview Shirley
8 Brady, who had been a
housekeeper for the
9 Ramseys for almost
four years?
10
A. The
name sounds familiar and if
11 it's the person I'm
thinking of who resided
12 in Georgia I think
Harmer or Gosage conducted
13 that interview.
14
Q. They
would have prepared a report?
15
A. I
would think so.
16
Q.
Shirley Brady tells me that she
17 got a phone call and
about a five-minute
18 interview and when
she said she made it
19 pretty clear that the
Ramseys weren't in any
20 way the type of
people that could be involved
21 in this, that the
interview ended and she
22 never heard from
anybody again. Does that
23 sound like a thorough
investigation if that's
24 true?
25
A. It
depends on what the detectives
295
1 were doing. I don't know what they were
2 doing.
3
Q. Well,
you know if you have got to
4 -- if you're spending
a lot of time with
5 Linda Hoffmann-Pugh
who had worked for them
6 less than two years
and only worked part time
7 and you want to know
all about this family's
8 background, a
thorough investigation, wouldn't
9 you believe, sir,
from your experience as a
10 police officer that
you're going to spend
11 more than five
minutes on the phone with
12 someone who was a
housekeeper for three
13 years?
14
A. For
some reason in my mind, and I
15 may be wrong, I don't
think Mrs. Brady was
16 ever in Colorado with
the family. There was
17 apparently nothing
that the detective who
18 interviewed her felt
was worth more than
19 their five
minutes. You would have to ask
20 them.
21
Q. So you
had to be in Colorado with
22 the family in order
to be a significant
23 witness as to their
background?
24
A. No,
not to their background.
25 Q. That doesn't make any sense, does
296
1 it?
2
A. No.
3
Q. I
didn't think it did. I mean,
4 you know you all were
looking to see if
5 there was any
pathology in this family on
6 either John Ramsey's
part or Patsy Ramsey's
7 part, right?
8
A. We
did.
9
Q. And you
didn't find any, did you?
10
A. What
do you mean by pathology,
11 Mr. Wood?
12
Q. Mr.
Thomas, please, you know what
13 pathology means.
14
MR. DIAMOND: Don't give him
that
15 tone of voice or I'm
going to pick him up
16 and walk him out of
here.
17
MR. WOOD: If you want to
pick
18 him up and walk him
out of here, if you
19 think you're
justified, do so.
20
MR. DIAMOND: Cut out the
sarcasm.
21 If you have a problem
with his answer, move
22 on to another
question.
23
MR. WOOD: All right. May I ask
24 my question without your interruption,
please?
25
MR. DIAMOND: You may.
297
1
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, please,
2 do you, sir, not know what I mean when I
3 asked you whether
there was any pathology on
4 the part of John or
Patsy Ramsey from a
5 criminal
investigation standpoint?
6
A. I
simply asked you to explain to
7 me what you mean by
pathology.
8
Q. As
used by the people that discuss
9 that very term in
your investigation. You
10 knew what they meant,
didn't you?
11 A. I don't think, to
answer your
12 question, that there
was anything remarkable
13 or outstanding as far
as what you're
14 inquiring about. Although, Pitt and others
15 would describe to us
their concerns about the
16 beauty pageant world
and child beauty
17 pageants, et cetera,
if that's what we're
18 talking about as far
as family history.
19
Q. Drug
use, illegal drug use would
20 be pathology, child
abuse would be pathology,
21 domestic violence
would be pathology, right?
22
A. Yes.
23
Q. You
didn't find anything about
24 that with respect to
this family, did you,
25 sir, John and Patsy
Ramsey?
298
1
A. Drug
use, child abuse, or spousal
2 abuse, not that I'm
aware of.
3
Q.
Anything along the lines of
4 pathology that you
believe you heard the
5 investigation found,
other than Pitt and
6 others you say
commenting about beauty
7 pageants?
8
A. No,
there wasn't any sort of
9 untoward history or
certainly no criminal
10 history that I was
made aware of.
11
Q. When
you were in these
12 presentations, either
one or both, wasn't it
13 discussed that the
experts hired by the
14 Boulder Police
Department did not believe that
15 there was pathology?
16
A. I
don't know to which experts
17 you're referring.
18
Q. Well,
Dr. Krugman, do you remember
19 him?
20
A. Yeah,
certainly. Dr. Krugman was
21 the one who put forth
the bed-wetting,
22 toileting, and rage
scenarios.
23
Q. Ken
Lanning of the FBI?
24
A. I
remember Mr. Lanning from
25 Quantico.
299
1
Q. What
did Mr. Lanning say with
2 respect to his
expectation in a case like
3 this in terms of
whether you would expect to
4 find serious
pathology or not?
5
A. I
don't recall. I'll refresh
6 myself at some point
I hope with that report.
7
Q. When
you, sir, with all due
8 respect when you're
sitting down to write a
9 book to state your,
as you call it,
10 hypothesis that Patsy
Ramsey murdered her
11 daughter, I'm just
operating under the
12 assumption that you
would have thoroughly
13 familiarized yourself
with the investigation
14 before committing
that type of a statement to
15 word for profit. Is my assumption wrong?
16
MR. DIAMOND: This
deposition is
17 not about the
authorship of his book.
18
MR. WOOD: No, it's about
his
19 knowledge of the investigation, sir.
20
MR. DIAMOND: You can ask
him
21 questions about that.
22
MR. WOOD: I just did.
23
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Is my assumption
24 wrong?
25
MR. DIAMOND: I direct you
not to
300
1 answer the pending
question. The next
2 question.
3
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Did you or did you
4 not prior to April of
2000 familiarize
5 yourself fully with
the significant findings
6 of the investigation
of John Ramsey and Patsy
7 Ramsey in connection
with the death of
8 JonBenet, yes or no?
9
A. I
tried to.
10
Q. Did
you feel confident that you
11 had in fact that
familiarity?
12
A. Was I
familiar with the case?
13 Yes, absolutely.
14
Q. Well,
did all the experts agree
15 that JonBenet Ramsey
was alive at the time of
16 the injury to her
vagina?
17
A. Again,
I don't know what experts
18 you're referring to
but we had --
19
Q. The
ones that you listened to.
20
A. Let me
finish, Mr. Wood.
21
Q. The
ones that your department
22 hired?
23
A. At
times there was, among experts,
24 as was to be
expected, there was conflict of
25 opinion. But regarding the prior vaginal
301
1 trauma if that's what
you're asking about,
2 this blue ribbon
panel of pediatric medical
3 experts they brought
in seemed to me to be
4 in agreement on some
other conclusions.
5 Q. I'm talking about the
acute
6 vaginal trauma she
suffered at the time of
7 her murder. The agreement was unanimous that
8 she was alive at the
time that that vaginal
9 trauma was inflicted,
true?
10
A. Yes, I
believe that's correct.
11
Q. Now,
tell me who the members were
12 of what you call the
blue ribbon panel of
13 pediatric experts,
give me their names,
14 please.
15
A. I
think the FBI recommended --
16
Q. Just
their names, not the
17 recommendation?
18
A. -- and
tried to -- and he
19 participated, was a
doctor from California,
20 Dr. John McCann, from
Miami was Dr., I
21 believe it's, Valerie
Rau and the third
22 gentleman from St.
Louis, I think he was the
23 Dean of the
Children's Hospital or the
24 pediatrics at Glenn
Cannon and I don't recall
25 his name offhand.
302
1
Q.
Anybody else on this panel?
2 A. On and off, we saw one of
3 Hunter's advisors,
which was Krugman.
4
Q. Was he
on the blue ribbon panel
5 that you keep
referring to?
6
A.
Krugman?
7
Q. Yeah, the blue ribbon panel
of
8 pediatric experts
that I asked you about.
9 Was Krugman on that
panel?
10
A. No.
11
Q. Okay.
12
A. I
think that panel consisted of
13 those three
individuals.
14
Q. Take a
look, if you would, at
15 page 45 of your
book. Second -- actually,
16 first full
paragraph. "An acquaintance
said
17 that JonBenet was
rebelling against appearing
18 in the child beauty
contests. She was being
19 pushed into the
pageants by her mother and
20 grandmother, said the
witness." Who is that
21 individual?
22 A. I believe that was
Judith
23 Phillips.
24
Q. Did
you find Judith Phillips to be
25 credible?
303
1 A. At times.
2
Q. At
times she was not credible?
3
A. No, I
think Judith Phillips, like
4 many others in
Boulder, were devastated by
5 this crime and she
had tough moments, I'm
6 sure.
7
Q. Do you
think John and Patsy Ramsey
8 had tough moments
because they would have
9 been devastated by
the death of their
10 daughter?
11
A. They certainly may have.
12
Q. Page
48, the first full paragraph.
13 "John was
overheard to ask someone quietly,
14 'Did you get my golf
bag?'" Did I read that
15 correctly?
16 A. Yes.
17
Q. Who
overheard him ask that
18 question?
19
A. I
believe that was either John or
20 Barbara Fernie.
21
Q. Who
did they overhear him ask that
22 question to? Who was the someone?
23
A. They
could not identify that
24 party.
25
Q. And
when did that statement, was
304
1 it allegedly made?
2
A. The
did you get my golf bag
3 statement?
4
Q. Yeah.
5
A. I
think in the days following the
6 murder.
7 Q. Do you know how many
days after
8 the murder?
9
A. No.
10
Q. And
was there ever any concern in
11 the Boulder Police
Department about a
12 relationship that
developed between Barbara
13 Fernie and Linda
Arndt?
14
A. I
think there were concerns about
15 Arndt that ultimately
led to her removal from
16 this investigation.
17 Q. My question was, sir, and let me
18 repeat it for you if
it was not clear. Are
19 you aware of any
concerns in the Boulder
20 Police Department
about a relationship that
21 developed between
Barbara Fernie and Linda
22 Arndt?
23
A. Yes.
24
Q. Tell
me what the nature of those
25 concerns were.
305
1
A. As I
recall, I think that there
2 was some feeling that
Linda Arndt had gone
3 outside her police
hat, so to speak, and was
4 involving herself
emotionally with Barbara
5 Fernie.
6
Q. And
potentially romantically or
7 sexually?
8
A. Never
have I heard anything like
9 that.
10
Q. Look
at page 52, the second full
11 paragraph, last sentence, "The officer said
12 she was told by a
police intern on duty not
13 to be concerned
because 'the detectives
14 already know who did
it.'" Have I read that
15 correctly?
16 A. You have.
17
Q. Who
was the police intern?
18
A. I
don't know.
19
Q. Who
was the officer, Chromiak?
20
A. As it
says.
21
Q. Who
were the detectives?
22
A. I
don't know because this was
23 prior to my
involvement in the case, I
24 believe.
25
Q. Did
you ever see any lab forensic
306
1 test forms filled out
as early as December
2 30, 1996, that under
the form area for
3 suspects had John
Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey's
4 name there and no one
else's?
5
A. No,
but it wouldn't surprise me.
6
Q. As
early as December 30, 1996,
7 that would not
surprise you, would it, sir?
8
A. No,
with this ambiguous label of
9 suspect, no.
10
Q. With
that ambiguous label of
11 suspect it would seem
to me there would be a
12 lot of other people
that would be on there
13 such as Fleet White
as of December 30th,
14 right?
15
A. Right
what, Mr. Wood?
16
Q. You
can't -- I mean, you're trying
17 to tell me as I
understand it, well, you
18 know, it wouldn't
surprise me for John and
19 Patsy Ramsey's name
to appear on the form as
20 early as December
30th as a suspect because
21 of the ambiguous use
of the term suspect.
22
Well, you're going to apply the
23 ambiguous terms equally to all, aren't
you?
24 Shouldn't we see
Fleet White? Shouldn't we
25 see John Fernie? Shouldn't we see
307
1 Mr. Barnhill? Shouldn't we see Bill
2 McReynolds? Shouldn't we see all of those
3 people as of December
30th, sir, under that
4 as you now call it
ambiguous term suspect?
5
A. I did
not see the report. In
6 fact, if you see my
reports, I think I refer
7 to them as subjects.
8
Q. When
did you move them from
9 subjects to suspects?
10
A. I don't
know that I in my reports
11 listed them as
suspects.
12
Q. How
about in your mind's eye, when
13 did you make the
determination that they were
14 suspects?
15
A. Well,
everybody was a potential
16 suspect from early
on, Mr. Wood.
17
Q.
Everybody?
18
A. Excuse
my use of everybody. There
19 were a number of
people who could be
20 potential suspects in
this case from very
21 early on.
22
Q. Bill
McReynolds was?
23
MR. DIAMOND: I'm sorry,
could you
24 -- could I have that
reread?
25
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Bill McReynolds
308
1 was, right?
2
MR. DIAMOND: Thank you.
3
A. Was a
suspect as early as December
4 30th, 1996?
5
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Yeah.
6
A. Or
shortly thereafter he became an
7 early suspect.
8
Q. At
what point in time did you say
9 I think Patsy Ramsey
killed her daughter?
10
A. I
think the evidence led me to
11 those conclusions and
further strengthened my
12 belief in the early
months of 1997.
13
Q. When
in 1997, the early months,
14 what does that
mean? Tell me what that
15 means with some
specificity, please, sir.
16
A. There
was not a defining moment in
17 which the bell rang
and I noted the date and
18 time. Early in
1997 it became more and more
19 apparent to me that
that's where the
20 abundance of evidence
was leading.
21
Q. And
you were heavily influenced in
22 that determination by
the conclusion of John
23 Foster, weren't you,
sir?
24
A. Don
Foster?
25
Q. Don
Foster, yeah.
309
1
A. No, he did not come on board for
2 I think almost
another year.
3
Q. Right. So you had decided in
4 your mind's eye that
Patsy Ramsey killed her
5 daughter many months
before Don Foster made
6 the appearance as a
consultant in the case,
7 right?
8
A. Again,
Mr. Wood, as I said, I
9 felt there was an
abundance of evidence
10 pointing in that
direction. And that became
11 -- and others viewed
it the same way,
12 incidentally. And, yes, in those early
13 months of '97, she
looked pretty good for
14 that.
15
Q. Yes,
sir. Thank you. But that
16 doesn't answer my
question. You had decided
17 in your mind's eye
that Patsy Ramsey killed
18 her daughter many
months before Don Foster
19 made his appearance
as a consultant in the
20 case, true?
21
A. I felt
that she was the best
22 suspect, yes, many
months prior to Don's
23 Foster's involvement.
24
Q.
Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 2 is
25 Mr. Foster's letter
to my client, Patsy
310
1 Ramsey. Have you seen that letter before?
2
A. I
haven't looked at it yet.
3
Q. Do you think there was more than
4 one?
5
MR. DIAMOND: Can you hold
on a
6 second?
7
MR. WOOD: Did I call that
8 Plaintiff's Exhibit
2, it's Defendants'
9 Exhibit 2, excuse me.
10
MR. SMITH: I don't have any
--
11
MR. WOOD: I can't hear
you. I
12 can assume the
general gist of what you're
13 saying.
14 (Pause.)
15
MR. WOOD: Do you want to go
off
16 the record to save
tape?
17
MR. DIAMOND: No, I will be
done
18 in a second. How are you doing?
19 THE
DEPONENT: Yeah, I'm keeping
20 up with you on it.
21
MR. DIAMOND: Do you want to
give
22 him a moment to look
at it?
23
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) If you want to
24 look at it, we can
take a break instead of
25 wasting tape because
I don't want it to count
311
1 against my time?
2
MR. DIAMOND: If you show
him a
3 document he has a
right to read it. If you
4 only come with one
we've got to read it one
5 at a time. This is your time use it the
6 way you want.
7 MR. WOOD: Every road goes in two
8 directions, Mr. --
9
MR. DIAMOND: Diamond.
10
MR. WOOD: Diamond, is that
your
11 name? I'm sorry, I forgot it just
12 momentarily. Why don't we take a five-minute
13 break and let him
read that. I need to go
14 to the restroom
anyway.
15
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time
is
16 3:48. We're going off the record.
17
(Recess taken from 3:48 p.m. to
18 3:53 p.m.)
19
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time
is
20 3:53. We're back on the record.
21
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Defendants' Exhibit
22 Number 2, you've had
an opportunity to review
23 it during the break?
24
A. Yes.
25
Q. That
is what you recall being as
312
1 being a true and
correct copy of a letter
2 that was subsequently
brought to your
3 attention at some
point in the investigation
4 that Mr. Foster, Don
Foster, had written to
5 Patsy Ramsey in June
of 1997?
6
A. I had
only seen the first page of
7 that.
8
Q. Does
the first page appear to be
9 a true and correct
copy of that page that
10 you saw?
11
A. Yes.
12
MR. DIAMOND: Did you get an
13 audible response?
14
MR. WOOD: I thought he said
yes.
15 Did you get a yes?
16 THE
REPORTER: Yes.
17
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Page 67 of your
18 book, bottom
paragraph "Later a friend who
19 had come out from
Boulder for the services
20 recalled that she was
asked by Patsy to
21 retrieve the black
jeans Patsy had worn ...
22 the morning of
December 26th." Who was that
23 friend?
24
A. I
believe that was Priscilla
25 White.
313
1
Q. Did
you ever consider that perhaps
2 Patsy Ramsey wanted
those jeans because she
3 wanted some casual
clothes and did not at
4 that time feel like going out and
shopping?
5
A. No, it
struck me as unusual, as I
6 said, to transport a
pair of jeans 1500 miles
7 to Atlanta from
Boulder.
8
Q. You
think that was incriminatory?
9
A. It
struck me as odd, Mr. Wood.
10
Q. Did it
strike you as odd that the
11 Boulder Police
Department never made a request
12 to the Ramsey family
to obtain the articles
13 of clothing that they
wore on the 25th of
14 December for almost a
year?
15
MR. DIAMOND: Are you
representing
16 that is the case?
17
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) I think Mr. Thomas
18 knows that is
absolutely the case, don't you?
19
A. Which
question?
20
Q. That
the one that I -- well, the
21 Boulder Police
Department didn't ask John and
22 Patsy Ramsey for the articles of clothing
23 they had worn on the
25th of December, 1996
24 until almost a year
later, true?
25
A. For a
long time, that was a
314
1 mistake, yes.
2
Q. Didn't
that strike you as odd?
3
A. That
the police did that?
4
Q. You
and the police, you were part
5 of the case?
6
A. Yes.
7
Q. Why
did you do it?
8
A. Why
did I do what?
9
Q. Why
didn't you ask the Ramseys to
10 give you the articles
of clothing they wore?
11
A. In
hindsight, that was important.
12
Q. You
had already concluded that
13 Patsy Ramsey
committed the crime before you
14 even asked for the
clothes that she had worn,
15 true?
16
A. Those
should have been collected
17 the first day and
they weren't.
18
Q. You
had already concluded that
19 Patsy Ramsey had
committed the crime before
20 you even asked the Ramseys for the clothes
21 they had worn that
night, true?
22
A. It was
my belief that that
23 evidence that I'm
talking about led to Patsy
24 Ramsey. So yes, she was the best suspect
25 before we wound up
collecting their clothes.
315
1
Q. I'm
not asking you about who is
2 the best. I'm talking about you, Steve
3 Thomas, a lead
detective had concluded that
4 Patsy Ramsey had
killed her daughter,
5 JonBenet, months
before you or the Boulder
6 Police Department
even asked for the clothes
7 that she and her
husband were wearing that
8 night; is that true?
9
MR. DIAMOND: Asked and
answered.
10 You can answer.
11
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Can I get an
12 answer and then we
can move on. Am I
13 correct, sir?
14
A. That's
my belief that she was
15 involved.
16
Q. And
the timing is correct, right?
17
A. Prior to the retrieval of the
18 clothing, yes.
19
Q. All
right. Thank you. It seems
20 like it was a pretty
simple question.
21
MR. DIAMOND: You wanted to
put
22 your words in his
mouth and he didn't want
23 to swallow them,
which is his right.
24
MR. WOOD: Well, the truth
then
25 one can surmise why
one has difficulty
316
1 swallowing the truth.
2
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Sir, let me ask
3 you --
4
MR. DIAMOND: That's a
hot-headed
5 remark.
6 MR.
WOOD: What?
7
MR. DIAMOND: That's a
hot-headed
8 remark.
9
MR. WOOD: Well, I don't
think
10 it's any more hot
headed than your comment
11 made about swallowing
the truth and making --
12 and taking my words?
13
MR. DIAMOND: Try swallowing
the
14 truth.
15
MR. WOOD: Your comment,
sir,
16 you're the one that
got into the swallowing.
17 So, you know, if you
stay away from there, I
18 don't need to go
there.
19
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) What happened to
20 pages 17 through 25
of the pad, do you know,
21 from where CBI concluded that the ransom
note
22 was written?
23
A. Are we
talking about Patsy's
24 tablets?
25
Q.
Seventeen through 25 of the tablet
317
1 that was given to the
police that morning by
2 John Ramsey because
it contained handwriting
3 by Patsy.
4
A.
Seventeen through 25 I believe
5 remained unaccounted
for.
6
Q. Was
there a note from Bill
7 McReynolds found torn
up in JonBenet's trash
8 can in her room?
9
A. I have
heard that.
10 Q. Did you ever check to
see if that
11 were true?
12
A. I
think I was told that it was
13 some sort of card.
14
Q. From
Bill McReynolds?
15
A. Yes.
16
Q. Was it
ever fingerprinted, do you
17 know?
18
A.
Detective Trujillo would know that.
19 I don't.
20
Q. Did
you ever try to find out?
21 A. No.
22
Q. Did
you ever try to find out what
23 the card said?
24
A. I
recall at one time. I don't
25 now.
318
1
Q. What
was the object that struck
2 the blow that
fractured JonBenet Ramsey's
3 skull?
4
A. I
don't know. A blunt object. I
5 don't believe, at
least during the time I was
6 involved in the
investigation, it was
7 identified.
8
Q. Were
there any forensic tests
9 conducted to
determine the force one would
10 have to exert on her head
to create a
11 fracture of the
magnitude found on autopsy?
12
A. Are we
talking like torque and
13 foot pound pressure,
that sort of thing?
14
Q. You're
the expert it sounds like,
15 yeah, sure.
16
A. I'm
not. But I'm not familiar
17 with any tests like
that.
18
Q. There
apparently could have been
19 some I take it?
20
A. I don't
know that.
21
Q. Did
you all get any experts
22 involved, consultants
involved in the Boulder
23 Police Department to
look into that issue?
24
A. Dr.
Spitz in Michigan did some
25 testing.
319
1
Q. Anyone
besides Dr. Spitz?
2
A. Not
that I'm aware of. But Dr.
3 Spitz' testing was
trying to determine
4 potential blunt
object instruments that may
5 have caused that
injury.
6
Q. Not
the force or torque or foot
7 pound pressure?
8
A.
Correct.
9
Q. Are
you aware from your
10 investigation of any
statements by John Ramsey
11 or Patsy Ramsey that
they thought that Fleet
12 White or Priscilla
White or both killed their
13 daughter JonBenet?
14
A. Yes,
if those transcripts serve
15 memory correctly,
yeah, they cast suspicion on
16 the Whites, yes.
17
Q. Well,
then, I mean, please, with
18 all due respect,
casting suspicion by saying
19 that you suspect
someone is different than
20 saying that you
believe that they killed your
21 daughter, can we not
agree on that, sir?
22
A. I
believe the Ramseys only sat
23 down a couple times
with --
24
Q. I
didn't ask you that, sir.
25
A. -- the government and -- please.
320
1
MR. DIAMOND: You may
finish.
2
MR. WOOD: You may but I
mean at
3 some point I'm going
to have to maybe get
4 the judge to direct
him to answer the
5 question. She certainly would if in fact he
6 were in front of
her. I didn't ask him
7 about how many times
the Ramseys sat down
8 with the
government. I asked him, please,
9 with all due respect,
casting suspicion by
10 saying you suspect
someone is different than
11 saying that you
believe -- strike that. Let
12 me go back. Please, with all due respect,
13 casting suspicion by
saying that you suspect
14 someone is different
than saying that you
15 believe that that
person killed your daughter;
16 can we agree on that,
sir.
17
MR. DIAMOND: And he was
answering
18 that question.
19
MR. WOOD: Would you answer
that
20 question, Mr. Thomas,
and if you do not want
21 to answer that
question then I'm going to
22 consider upon recess
whether I'm going to
23 adjourn this
deposition and get some guidance
24 today on another
occasion to have this
25 witness quit wasting
time by being non
321
1 responsive to the
question. Why don't you
2 counsel him on a
break here and let's take
3 two minutes and let
me talk to Mr. Rawls
4 because I'm kind of
reaching the end of my
5 rope with you and
him.
6
MR. DIAMOND: We're not --
we're
7 going to stay on the
record.
8
MR. WOOD: Let him answer
the
9 question then.
10
MR. DIAMOND: He may in any
way
11 he sees fit. Do you want the question
12 reread?
13
THE DEPONENT: Yeah, please.
14
MR. DIAMOND: Madam
reporter?
15
MR. WOOD: Ready. Do you want to
16 read it back to him
maybe he'll understand
17 it. He didn't seem to have this problem
18 with Mr. Hoffman's
questions.
19
MR. DIAMOND: Could be a
20 reflection on Mr.
Hoffman.
21
MR. WOOD: Could be a
reflection
22 on woodshedding by
the lawyers more
23 appropriately. I don't think anybody skilled
24 in litigation is
going to have any questions
25 about what this
witness and his lawyers have
322
1 done and told him to
do. It's pretty
2 obvious. Thank goodness we have the record
3 both video and
stenographically.
4
(Page 279, line 23 through page
5 280, line 2 read.)
6
A. I
think the Ramseys were very
7 careful in how they
cast that suspicion and I
8 would have to review
those transcripts as to
9 their verbatim
language to refresh myself
10 because as I sit here
today, four years
11 later, I don't recall
that.
12 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You can't answer
13 that question today,
is that what you're
14 telling me?
15
A. I
don't recall their language, no.
16
Q. And
hence you're telling me today
17 as you sit here you cannot answer my
18 question, is that
your testimony?
19
A. And
hence, I think I just tried
20 to answer your
question.
21
Q. Do you
use the term and hence
22 often?
23
A. No,
you just used it.
24
Q. Do you
use it often?
25
A. Never.
323
1 Q. Would you be willing to give me a
2 handwriting exemplar
today before we leave?
3
MR. DIAMOND: You can make a
4 request of his
counsel.
5
MR. WOOD: I would like to. I
6 would just like to
see what maybe some of
7 these examiners would
say about it not
8 necessarily casting
aspersions on Mr. Thomas,
9 but maybe testing the
waters on how reliable
10 a handwriting analysis
is. So if you would
11 consider that we will
come back to that at
12 the very end.
13
MR. DIAMOND: It is under
14 consideration.
15
Q. (BY MR.
WOOD) Let me ask you to
16 look at page 87. "Dog and pony shows."
17
MR. DIAMOND: Where are you
18 looking?
19
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) The first paragraph
20 next to the last
sentence "The only danger
21 to" John --
"Patsy and John Ramsey when they
22 put on their dog and
pony shows did not come
23 from the interviewers
but from themselves."
24 What are you referring
to when you -- that
25 you're describing as
their dog and pony
324
1 shows?
2
A. My
opinion some of these
3 appearances.
4
Q. What
appearances?
5
A. For
example, May 1 of 1997.
6
Q. What
other appearances?
7
A. I
don't know; I would have to
8 review their appearances,
Mr. Wood.
9
Q. You
said arranging an interview
10 with the news
organization was a tactic they
11 would use repeatedly
in coming years. How
12 many times did they
from your understanding
13 use that what you
call a tactic before the
14 publication of their
book?
15
A. I
don't think I make that
16 distinction, do I,
before or after the
17 publication of their
book?
18
Q. So you
were out doing the same
19 thing I guess when
you were giving your round
20 of media interviews
in connection with the
21 publication of your
book; was that a dog and
22 pony show by you?
23
A. They
have certainly said worse
24 about me than a dog
and pony show.
25
Q. Would
you agree you were in the
325
1 dog and pony show
business, too, then since
2 that's the way you
describe their interviews?
3
A. No. I don't describe mine as dog
4 and pony shows but I
have an opinion about
5 what I talk about
here.
6
Q. Page
113. Next to the last
7 paragraph
"Additional information he shared
8 with us at the
interview, which we were later
9 able to confirm,
further eliminated him."
10 What are you
referring to in terms of the
11 additional
information?
12
MR. DIAMOND: Can I, give me
a
13 second, please, to
get the context?
14
MR. WOOD: Bill McReynolds.
15
THE DEPONENT: Chuck, I need
to
16 prior to this answer
just 60 seconds to ask
17 you a question.
18
MR. WOOD: Go off the
record.
19
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time
is
20 4:07. We're going off the record. This is
21 the end of tape
three.
22
(Recess taken from 4:07 p.m. to
23 4:09 p.m.)
24
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time
is
25 4:10. We're on the record. This the
326
1
2
MR. DIAMOND:
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
A.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD)
21
22
23
A.
24
25
327
1
2
3
4
Q.
5
6
7
8
9
A.
10
11
12
13
Q.
14
15
16
17
A.
18
Q. Yeah,
he did. Did you ever see
19 the letter that he
had sent to Patsy before
20 his surgery where he
talked about how much he
21 enjoyed JonBenet
giving him a tour of the
22 house and giving him
a special present in the
23 basement of the house
a year before,
24 Christmas of 1995;
did you ever see that
25 letter?
328
1
A. I'm
not sure I ever saw a letter
2 like that.
3
Q. Do you
deny seeing a letter like
4 that?
5
A. I'm
telling you if the Ramseys had
6 wished to share that
with us, I certainly
7 would have looked at
it but, as I sit --
8
Q. Are
you saying they didn't?
9
A. -- as
I sit here right now I
10 don't recall that
letter.
11
Q.
Analysis proved that Santa Bill
12 didn't write the
ransom note. Was he in the
13 elimination category
from CBI?
14
A. Again,
if you want to go back to
15 that, he was not
under consideration.
16 Whether that was
elimination or no evidence
17 to indicate, it was
my understanding from
18 Trujillo that
McReynolds was not a candidate
19 as the ransom note
author.
20
Q. How
many different examiners looked
21 at his handwriting?
22
A. I
think it was just Chet Ubowski
23 at CBI.
24
Q. How
about Jessie McReynolds, did
25 he fall under the
category as John Ramsey did
329
1 of elimination as the
author?
2
A. Same
in the interest of your time,
3 same answer as for
Bill McReynolds.
4
Q. Again,
I guess in the interest of
5 my time, thank you
for your concern. When
6 we use the term
elimination, you claim not to
7 understand what that
means from the CBI and
8 other handwriting
experts; is that what you're
9 telling me?
10
Because I'm trying to find out if
11 you've got a report
where a CBI person, in
12 this instance Mr.
Ubowski I assume, said
13 based on his review
of exemplars in the
14 ransom note he was
able to eliminate Bill
15 McReynolds as an
author of the note. That's
16 what I want to know
whether that was done in
17 this case or
not. Was it done or not is my
18 question?
19
A. And I'm
not real sure of your
20 question, but as far
as elimination or no
21 evidence to indicate,
I believe Santa Bill
22 and his son fell into
that category.
23
Q. But
there were examiners that said
24 there was no evidence
to indicate that Patsy
25 was the author of the
note, true?
330
1
A. The
same examiner who also said
2 that didn't
disqualify her as possibly being
3 the author of the
note.
4
Q. Nor
would it disqualify Bill
5 McReynolds in and of
itself, true?
6
A. I
think it was different examiners
7 and I don't know the
standards of their
8 professional
examination.
9
Q. You
have seen the -- I'm sure you
10 watched some of the
appearances by Alex
11 Hunter when he went
out on the media, didn't
12 you?
13
A. I did.
14
Q. You've
heard Alex Hunter say that
15 the handwriting
experts in this case in fact
16 put Patsy Ramsey somewhere
around a 4.5 on a
17 one to five scale,
five being elimination.
18 You heard district
attorney Hunter make that
19 statement, didn't
you?
20
A. Not
only did I not hear him make
21 that statement, District Attorney Hunter I
22 never know what to
believe when he speaks.
23
Q. You
don't like Alex Hunter, do
24 you?
25
A. No,
sir.
331
1
Q. I
mean, that's a pretty damning
2 statement to make
about a man to say that
3 you never know what
to believe when he speaks
4 because that's a way
of saying that he's a
5 liar, not to be
trusted, wouldn't you agree?
6
A. I
always take at face value what
7 comes out of Mr.
Hunter's mouth.
8
Q. Jeff
Shapiro was your confidential
9 informant, right?
10
A. Yes.
11
Q. So you
had during your
12 investigation of
JonBenet Ramsey's murder a
13 confidential
informant who was a tabloid,
14
supermarket tabloid, reporter for Globe,
15 right?
16
A. Yes.
17
Q. And
you were trying to get
18 Mr. Shapiro to get
you information about
19 Mr. Hunter, right?
20
A. He
came to us with information.
21 Eye and -- ear and
eyewitness information
22 about some of the
activities going on in
23 Mr. Hunter's office,
yes.
24
Q. Did you
give the ransom note to
25 Ann Bardach?
332
1
A. We
discussed it. I never gave
2 her a copy of the
note or the note.
3 Q. Did you tell her what
it said?
4
A. We had
conversations which I would
5 describe as almost
wholly concerning the
6 politics of the
investigation but given some
7 of what was going on,
yes, I did discuss
8 content of the ransom
note with her.
9
Q. Did
you ever meet her in a
10 parking lot?
11
A. I met
her at a restaurant.
12
Q. Did
you ever meet her in a
13 parking lot, sir?
14
A. I
don't know what you're referring
15 to.
16
Q. A
parking lot. You asked Jeff
17 Shapiro, for example,
one time to meet you in
18 a parking lot, didn't
you?
19
A. Maybe
I met her in the restaurant
20 parking lot.
21
Q. That's
what I was asking. The
22 first time you met
her, you didn't want to
23 be seen in a
restaurant in Boulder, Colorado
24 with Ann Bardach, did
you?
25
A. Went
into the restaurant and had a
333
1 meal.
2
Q. How
many times did you meet with
3 Ann Bardach?
4
A. I
don't know, maybe four or five
5 times.
6
Q. You
were scared to death when you
7 were up in Quantico,
Mr. Thomas, that you
8 were going to be
outted as a source for her
9 Vanity Fair article,
weren't you?
10
A. I was
concerned because
11 Mr. Shapiro made me
aware or at least claimed
12 that what became a
big internal affairs witch
13 hunt in fact
transpired.
14
Q. You
were afraid it was going to
15 come out on CNN that
Steve Thomas had given
16 police
information to the Vanity Fair writer
17 and embarrass you
when you were up there with
18 these FBI people that
you were relying on,
19 isn't that true, sir?
20
A. As I
said, Mr. Wood, I was
21 concerned about that
being made public.
22
Q. You
were ready to throw down your
23 badge over it,
weren't you? Talked to your
24 wife and said I'm
going to walk away from
25 this, I can't take it
anymore, that was when
334
1 you were up in
Quantico, true?
2
A. I
don't know what Mr. Shapiro has
3
obviously told you but I was upset about
4 this, yes.
5
Q. Well,
did you take -- did you say
6 that?
7
A. Did I
say what?
8
Q. That
you were prepared to walk
9 away, you had talked
to your wife, you
10 weren't going to take
it anymore when you
11 were up there in
Quantico and you were afraid
12 that it was going to
come out that you had
13 provided this information?
14
A. I had
some frustrations throughout
15 this case which
eventually led me to do just
16 that and resign.
17
Q. I'm
talking about, sir, when you
18 were up there in
Quantico and had these
19 conversations with
Mr. Shapiro which would
20 have been around
September of 1997, a year
21 before you
resigned. Do you remember that?
22 A. Yes.
23
Q. How
many conversations did you
24 have with Mr.
Shapiro?
25
A. I'm
not sure but I'm confident he
335
1 was tape recording
most likely those
2 conversations and
that would bear out that
3 conversation.
4
Q. Why
are you confident that he was
5 tape recording them?
6 A. It was my impression
that he was
7 tape recording a lot
of people.
8
Q. Did
you ever make a statement to
9 him on the phone,
Jeff, do you know what
10 they call the people
that chased down
11 Princess Diana,
papparazzi, and do you know
12 what they call
someone who strangles and
13 kills their child,
Poppa Ramsey?
14
A. Never.
15
Q. Never
made that statement?
16
A. Never.
17
Q. You
deny that under oath?
18
A. Yes.
19
Q. Did
you ever read "Perfect Murder,
20 Perfect Town"?
21
A. I did.
22
Q. Any
phone conversations involving
23 you that you read and
thought were grossly
24 inaccurate?
25
A. Yes.
336
1
Q. Which
ones were those?
2
A. One in
which Jeff Shapiro,
3 according to
Schiller, alleges that I told
4 Shapiro who I thought
killed the victim in
5 this case.
6
Q. The
one where you said John and
7 Patsy?
8
A. I
don't know if you would care to
9 turn to the quote,
that's the one I'm
10 recalling.
11 Q. Is that the one?
12
A. I
don't know. Let me look at the
13 quote.
14
Q. We'll
come back to it later if we
15 need to. Anything else, other than that one?
16
A. There were, I think, a
number of
17 factual errors in the
book. And if you
18 would like to sit
down and go through the
19 book, we can
certainly do that.
20
Q. If
you're willing at some point
21 and your attorneys
will let you do that with
22 me, I assure you that
I very much would like
23 to sit down and do
that with you. I am
24 very interested in
those facts for
25 inaccuracies.
337
1
Anybody besides Carol McKinley,
2 Jeff Shapiro and Ms.
Bardach that you
3 discussed this case
with while you were still
4 actively involved in
this investigation in
5 terms of media
individuals?
6
A. That
phone would sometimes ring in
7 the situation room
100 times a day. I would
8 pick up the phone
but, no, didn't carry on
9 any dialogue or
conversation with others.
10
Q. Did
you ask Jeff Shapiro to find
11 out who was telling
people in Boulder that
12 you were the source
for the Vanity Fair
13 article?
14
A. If we
had a conversation in which
15 I asked him to do
that, I certainly wouldn't
16 deny it.
17
Q. And he
told you -- do you recall
18 him telling you it
was Bill Wise, Alex
19 Hunter's assistant?
20
A. He may
have.
21
Q. And
you responded, Those fuckers,
22 he said, almost as if
he were catatonic.
23 Then he got louder.
Those fuckers, he
24 repeated. Those fuckers, he shouted. Jesus
25 Christ, Jeff, do you
know what the fuck will
338
1 happen to me if it
comes out on national
2 television that I had
anything to do with
3 this fucking article
while I'm up here, he
4 asked. I'm up here with the FBI, man. Do
5 you have any idea how
fucking embarrassing
6 it's going to be if
we're all sitting in a
7 room together with
CNN on and that comes over
8 it? Fuck, it's going to make that whole
9 department look like
shit. Jesus Christ,
10 Jesus Christ.
11
Did you ever say anything like
12 that to Jeff Shapiro,
sir, in a telephone
13 conversation when you
were in Quantico?
14 MR.
DIAMOND: Are you reading from
15 something you would
like to share?
16
MR. WOOD: My notes.
17
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Did you have a
18 conversation with
words to that effect when
19 you talked to Mr.
Shapiro about who was
20 saying that you were
the source for the
21 Vanity Fair article?
22
A. Again,
Mr. Wood, it leads me to
23 believe that he was in
fact probably taping
24 these telephone
conversations. Yeah, I spoke
25 with him at a period
that I was very upset.
339
1
Q. You
don't deny making those
2 statements, do you,
sir? I'm sorry for the
3 language for the
court reporter's sake but
4 it's business and I
think everyone understands
5 that. You don't deny making those statements
6 at all, do you,
because you --
7
MR. DIAMOND: In those
words?
8
MR. WOOD: Oh, yeah. These are
9 quotes pretty much
that I was reading.
10 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You don't deny it
11 under oath, do you,
sir?
12
A. I
don't know if those are quotes
13 or not but I probably
had a conversation
14 similar to that.
15 Q. That wasn't the only one like
16 that, was it?
17
A. Like
what, Mr. Wood?
18
Q. Where
you were so upset about
19 being outted as a
source. You got real
20 upset when you
thought they were going to ask
21 you to take a
polygraph, didn't you?
22
A. I was
prepared to come back and
23 when asked admit that
I spoke with Ann
24 Bardach.
25 Q. Why don't you just come back and
340
1 admit the truth,
sir? Here you are in, at
2 least at the time,
what was one of the most,
3 if not the most, high
profile murder
4 investigations in the
country; an article has
5 come out about that
investigation when it's
6 only into its first
few months that has an
7 impact on the
investigation because it does
8 contain previously
undisclosed confidential
9 police information.
10
Did you not think it was the
11 correct and honorable
and professional thing
12 to do to simply come back and tell the
truth
13 that you had met with
her these several times
14 and that you had
provided her with
15 information?
16
MR. DIAMOND: Objection.
17 Argumentative. You may answer.
18
A. Did I
think it was the honorable
19 thing to come back to
Boulder and tell the
20 truth about it?
21
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Yes, sir.
22 A. I had the same
question of your
23 clients, yes.
24
Q. I'm
not -- let me tell you
25 something, sir, we're
not talking about my
341
1 clients right now
we're talking about Steve
2 Thomas. You've been doing a lot of talking
3 and a lot of writing
about my clients, but
4 now we're talking
about you. You were not
5 prepared to come face
the truth of what you
6 had done and out
yourself as the source and
7 you were scared to
death they were going to
8 make you take a
polygraph test and everyone
9 was
going to know that Steve Thomas had done
10 it and you were going
to be fired and you
11 were probably going
to be prosecuted. That
12 was your fear, wasn't
it, sir, pure and
13 simple one word,
disgraced?
14
A. No.
15
Q. You
didn't have concerns about
16 being prosecuted by
Alex Hunter?
17
A. I was
concerned when Shapiro
18 mentioned the conversations
he was having with
19 Mr. Hunter according
to Shapiro included
20 criminally
prosecuting whoever spoke or had
21 spoken with Ann
Bardach and I was prepared to
22 come back when asked,
as I said, and admit
23 my role.
24
Prior to that happening, they
25 dropped the whole
witch hunt inside the
342
1 police department.
2
Q. Did
you tell your friends at the
3 FBI that which you
were meeting with that,
4 you know, it might
impact your professional
5 feelings about my
credibility if you learned
6 this information
about me but I feel
7 compelled to let you
know I've been
8 discussing this case
with a tabloid reporter,
9 a FOX news reporter
and I have given
10 information to a
Vanity Fair reporter?
11
Did you think that might impact
12 your credibility,
sir, if people knew that
13 you were doing that?
14
A. I
don't know what other people
15 would have thought,
Mr. Wood, but I was
16 talking to Mr.
Shapiro, The Globe reporter as
17 in an informant
capacity. I wasn't sharing
18 information about the
case with Carol
19 McKinley. I described that as the politics
20 of the
investigation. And regarding Ann
21 Bardach, no, I have
not publicly disclosed
22 that.
23
Q. You
didn't find yourself the
24 source for a Globe
story about the demand by
25 the police to arrest
the Ramseys and got
343
1 upset with Jeff
Shapiro because he had given
2 that information to
his editors that made up
3 that story; you were
concerned that you were
4 going to be found to
be the source of that
5 story, too?
6
A. I
don't know what you're talking
7 about.
8
Q. Did
you ever give information to
9 the National Enquirer
or Shelly Ross, a
10 former employee of
the National Enquirer about
11 the 911 tape in terms
of the allegations that
12 Burke Ramsey appeared
on it?
13
A. I
don't know that I did.
14
Q. Do you
deny doing it?
15
A. I like
Shelly Ross; I don't know
16 that I discussed with
her evidence in the
17 case.
18
Q. Did
you discuss it with the
19 National Inquirer?
20
A. No,
the only conversations that I
21 believe that I have
had with the National
22 Enquirer is when they
after I resigned tried
23 to buy a story from
me.
24
Q. So
after you resigned, you went on
25 in September of 1997
20/20, Shelly Ross as
344
1 the executive
producer, right?
2
A. I
believe that's right.
3
Q. A
couple weeks before that there
4 had been an article
in the National Enquirer
5 disclosing the
enhanced 911 tape enhancement
6 about Burke Ramsey,
right?
7
A. I
don't know that.
8
Q. Did
you tell Shelly Ross about
9 that before you made
the appearance on her
10 show, the 911 tape
enhancement?
11
A. No, as
I said, I don't admit any
12 such thing of sharing
that information with
13 Shelly Ross.
14
Q. Do you
deny it?
15
A. Yeah,
again I didn't share that as
16 I sit here today or
have any recollection of
17 sharing that with
Shelly Ross.
18
Yeah, as a matter of fact, upon
19 reflection, Mr. Wood, I categorically deny
20 that because I
remember at the time the
21 suggestion that I may
have been the source of
22 that, and I
absolutely was not.
23
Q. And
you would take a polygraph on
24 that, wouldn't you?
25
MR. DIAMOND: I'm not going
to
345
1 let him answer that
question.
2 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Would you take a
3 polygraph examination
conducted by an
4 independent and
impartial examiner on your
5 role as a source for
some of these stories
6 while you were actively
investigating the
7 JonBenet Ramsey case?
8
MR. DIAMOND: I'm not going
to
9 let him answer that
question. It's improper.
10 Move forward.
11
MR. WOOD: So on advice of
12 counsel --
13
MR. DIAMOND: Yes. If you have a
14 discovery request,
make it of me.
15
MR. WOOD: I'm just asking
him if
16 he would be willing
to take one.
17
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Did you ever send
18 a letter formally
requesting a polygraph
19 examination of Patsy
Ramsey after the April
20 30, 1997 interview?
21
A. I don't
believe so.
22
Q. Did
you ever make any formal
23 request for a
polygraph examination of Patsy
24 Ramsey after the
April 30, 1997 interview?
25
A.
Certainly we hounded Pete Hofstrom
346
1 about it.
2
Q. I
didn't ask you about Pete
3 Hofstrom. I want to know whether you asked
4 Patsy Ramsey or her
lawyers formally will you
5 submit to a polygraph
examination after April
6 30, 1997?
7
A. There
was a chain of command. I
8 didn't deal directly
with Patsy Ramsey or her
9 attorneys but I did
not personally draft such
10 a letter.
11
Q. Are
you aware of any formal demand
12 made by the Boulder
authorities on Patsy
13 Ramsey after April
30, 1997, before you left
14 in August 1998, to
submit to a polygraph
15 examination after
April 30?
16
A. It was
very clear that the police
17 department leaned on
the DA's office to do
18 exactly that. And the fact that the DA's
19 office chose not to
was to the chagrin of
20 the Boulder Police
Department.
21
Q. So the
answer is you're not aware
22 of any request being
made?
23
A. The
answer is just what I
24 answered, Mr. Wood.
25
Q. Even
after Patsy Ramsey said she
347
1 would take ten of them
when you asked her
2 the question
hypothetically on April the 30th,
3 1997, right?
4
A. Right
what? Was a formal request
5 made?
6
Q. Yeah,
when she said -- you asked
7 her hypothetically,
if I ask you to take one
8 and she said, I'll
take ten of them, do
9 whatever you want,
and you're telling me for
10 whatever reasons,
politically I guess is your
11 explanation, but whatever the explanation
is
12 there was never a
demand made on Patsy Ramsey
13 to take a polygraph
examination after April
14 30th, 1997, prior to
when you left in August
15 of 1998, true?
16
A. I
don't know that she was ever
17 sent an engraved
invitation to take a
18 polygraph but I think
it was pretty clear,
19 Mr. Wood, of the
police department's position
20 and through the
district attorney's office
21 that the Boulder
Police Department wanted John
22 and Patsy Ramsey to
submit to law enforcement
23 sponsored polygraph
examinations.
24 Q. And do you all
usually do those
25 on engraved
invitations?
348
1
A. No.
2
Q. Why
did you misrepresent the truth
3 then in
your book when you said that the
4 book was going to be
the inside story
5 answering a wide
range of important questions,
6 including why were
the Ramseys handled with
7 kid gloves and never
asked by law enforcement
8 to take lie detector
tests?
9
MR. DIAMOND: I'm going to
10 object --
11
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Were they asked or
12 not asked by law
enforcement to take a lie
13 detector test? I'm trying to find out the
14 truth of the
investigation.
15
MR. DIAMOND: Do you want to
16 withdraw the first
question and have him
17 answer
the second question?
18
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Do you understand
19 the question? Here is your book jacket.
20 You saw it before it
hit the stands, didn't
21 you?
22
MR. DIAMOND: Which are we
23 answering?
24
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) This one right
25 here. Did you see this --
349
1
A. Book
jacket, yeah.
2
Q. --
book jacket before it hit the
3 stands?
4
A. Yes,
sir, that would be my book
5 jacket --
6
Q. There
it is.
7 A. -- before the book
went into
8 the --
9
Q. Right.
10
A. Retail
store.
11
Q. Let's
just try to make this clear.
12 I just want to know
what the truth is. Were
13 the Ramseys asked by
law enforcement to take
14 lie detector tests or
not?
15
A. Yes,
and I believe you know that
16 because read the
transcript of my interview
17 with your clients from April 30, 1997, and
I
18 think even Alex
Hunter has said a monkey
19 could understand that
polygraph examinations
20 were being requested.
21
Q. Now we
believe Alex Hunter on that
22 point; is that what
you're telling me?
23
A. As I
said, Alex Hunter says a lot
24 of things but I
happen to agree with his
25 assessment that is
borne out by the
350
1 transcript of that
interview.
2
Q. Did
you ever seek to interview the
3 Richardson twins who
lived with Melody
4 Stanton?
5
A. No.
6
Q. Why
not?
7
A.
Because I was unaware of these
8 people.
9
Q. Did
anybody in the Boulder Police
10 Department make an attempt,
to your knowledge,
11 to interview the two
30-year old twins, the
12 Richardson twins,
that lived with Melody
13 Stanton?
14
A. Not
that I'm aware of.
15
Q. How
about the two friends of Fleet
16 White that were
there, did you all ever get
17 any non- testimonial
evidence from those two
18 individuals?
19
A. Which
two friends are you
20 referring to?
21
Q. The
ones that were with him on
22 Christmas and were at
the Ramseys on I
23 believe the party of
the 23rd; do you know
24 who I'm talking
about?
25
A. Mr. Fleet
White's house guests at
351
1 the time?
2
Q. Yes. His friends that were house
3 guests, did you all
ever get any
4 non-testimonial evidence, hair, DNA,
5 handwriting from Mr.
Cox or Mr. Gaston?
6
A. I
believe Detective Harmer received
7 that assignment and
made attempts to conduct
8 that investigation. And I'm not sure whether
9 or not she was
successful in those attempts.
10
Q. On
page 270 of your book. Chief
11 Beckner started
talking about a successful
12 Title-3 electronic
surveillance down in
13 Florida where the
police had recorded the
14 mother saying 'The
baby is dead and buried
15 ... because you did
it' and the father
16 replied 'I wish I
hadn't harmed her -- it
17 was the cocaine', end
quote. "I considered
18 the irony of Beckner
discussing a Title-3
19 that worked damned
well in Florida when he
20 had been a part of
the scandal-frightened
21 leadership that
wouldn't let us try the same
22 tactic."
23
Have I read that correctly?
24
A. I
believe so.
25
Q. That
was the Aisenberg case,
352
1 wasn't it, Mr.
Thomas?
2
A. That
is the case that is being
3 referred to here,
yes.
4
Q. Right. You understand that charge
5 was dismissed against
the family because the
6 transcripts of the
tapes were not consistent
7 with the
representations made as to the
8 content by the
police?
9
A. I'm
not familiar with that.
10
Q. You
hadn't tried to study what
11 happened to the
Aisenberg case at all?
12
A. No, as
we sit here today I don't
13 know the conclusion
of the Aisenberg case.
14 Q. I would suggest it
would be
15 interesting for you
to look into it in your
16 spare time. Clearly you're going to tell me
17 that the Boulder
Police Department thoroughly
18 investigated, John
Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey,
19 right?
20
A. Is
that a question?
21
Q. Yes. Clearly you're going to tell
22 me that they
thoroughly investigated, the
23 Boulder Police
Department thoroughly
24 investigated John
Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey?
25
MR. DIAMOND: How do you
know
353
1 what he is going to
tell you unless you ask
2 him?
3
MR. WOOD: I just did.
4
MR. DIAMOND: No.
5
MR. WOOD: If he wants to
6 disagree with me he
can.
7 MR.
DIAMOND: You asked him
8 whether --
9
MR. WOOD: I'm not asking
you.
10
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Will you answer my
11 question? Did you understand? I will be
12 glad to make it
clear.
13
MR. DIAMOND: Why don't you
ask
14 him non-
argumentative questions.
15
MR. WOOD: Why don't you ask
him
16 questions --
17
MR. DIAMOND: Objection.
18
MR. WOOD: -- when you want
to.
19
MR. DIAMOND: Objection.
20 Argumentative.
21
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Are you going to
22 answer my question?
23
MR. DIAMOND: If you can
answer
24 that question.
25
A. It was
phrased as a statement but
354
1 I think I understand the question.
2
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Thank you.
3
A. Given
the God almighty obstacles
4 that we were up
against, we tried to
5 investigate them as
thoroughly as we could as
6 paper tigers.
7
Q. When
you were under threat of
8 lawsuit, the first
thing you did was hired a
9 PR person, Sherill
Wisinhunt (sic) and you
10 hired lawyers, right?
11
A. No, I
didn't hire Sherill
12 Whisenand.
13
Q.
Whisenand, I'm sorry.
14
A. She
was a friend of mine long
15 before this who
agreed to take these calls
16 for me and, having
been charged with
17 something and as a
defendant in a case, I
18 thought it was
necessarily prudent to retain
19 an attorney.
20
Q. Page
284 -- let me ask you before
21 I go there, during
Mr. Foster's presentation,
22 did he talk to you
all about the Dirty Harry
23 movie and the
references in the ransom note
24 to it by talking
about the fact that the
25 Ramseys' favorite
movie was Animal House and
355
1 there was a scene in
Animal House where
2 somebody drove a car
through the campus and
3 hit a fire hydrant
and there was a similar
4 scene in Dirty Harry
like that. Do you
5 recall that?
6
A. I
recall something vaguely similar
7 to that where he was
discussing events out of
8 motion pictures.
9
Q. Didn't
you think that was
10 borderline on the
absurd, sir, to tie Dirty
11 Harry to the Ramseys
because they liked the
12 movie Animal House
and it had a scene in it
13 where somebody ran
into a fire hydrant?
14 Didn't you think that
was literally absurd or
15 did you think that
was good forensic testing?
16
A. Taken
out of context as you
17 represent it today it
--
18
Q. Put it
into context, if you would,
19 please.
20
MR. DIAMOND: Let him finish
his
21 answer, please. Go ahead.
22
A. Taken
out of context as you
23 represented today,
that may seem odd. But at
24 the time, it was a
part of his presentation.
25 And I don't recall my
observation being how
356
1 you described it as
fantastic or incredible
2 or whatever term you
used.
3
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Was there a
4 transcript from a
tape recording of the first
5 interview of Jackie
Dilson, because you made
6 reference that I
should look at the
7 transcript, that
tells me that maybe it was
8 recorded and it was
transcribed?
9 A. I would -- it was
Detective Gosage
10 and my policy and
practice in this case to
11 try and record
witness interviews when
12 feasible and we may
very well have taken a
13 tape recorder -- as a
matter of fact, I
14 would have to answer,
yes, I believe we did
15 record and have
transcribed that interview.
16
Q. Page
286, you make reference to a
17 red turtleneck being
stripped off of JonBenet
18 when it got wet from
I guess her bed
19 wetting.
20
MR. DIAMOND: Where are you?
21
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Third paragraph
22 down "I
concluded the little girl had worn
23 the red turtleneck to
bed, as her mother
24 originally said, and
that it was stripped off
25 when it got
wet." Are you talking about
wet
357
1 from urine?
2
A. In
this hypothesis we're talking
3 about, yes.
4
Q. Did
you ever have or the Boulder
5 Police Department to
your knowledge ever have
6 the red turtleneck
found in the bathroom
7 tested forensically
to determine if it had
8 any type of trace
evidence or other evidence
9 on it?
10
A. Again,
it sounds like you know
11 otherwise but I was
under the impression from
12 Trujillo that there
wasn't a presumptive test
13 for urine.
14
Q. Did
anybody tell you that they
15 found the red
turtleneck and that it was wet?
16
A. No,
this is what I am surmising
17 in the hypothesis.
18
Q. Was
the red turtleneck taken into
19 evidence?
20
A. I
certainly believe it was.
21
Q. Did it
have any type of urine
22 stain on it?
23
A. Not
that I'm aware of. I never
24 have looked at it
personally.
25
Q. Where
did you get the statement
358
1 that it got wet; did
you just manufacture
2 that out of whole
cloth?
3
A. No,
I'm suggesting that that was a
4 reasonable
explanation for the final resting
5 place of this red
turtleneck of which she may
6 have indeed worn
home.
7
Q. But
you had no evidence to support
8 that statement about
the turtleneck being wet,
9 true?
10
A. No, I
don't know that it was
11 urine stained.
12
Q. Or
wet?
13
A. Or
wet.
14
Q. Was
there any test done on the
15 duct tape that would
establish the imprint of
16 JonBenet's lip prints
on that tape?
17
A. Was
there any test that would
18 establish that?
19
Q. Did you all to your knowledge, did
20 the Boulder Police
Department conduct any test
21 that would establish
that the duct tape that
22 was pulled off of her
mouth by John Ramsey
23 that was then picked
up by Fleet White was
24 found somehow to
contain a perfect set of
25 JonBenet's lip
prints, was any test performed
359
1 that made that
finding?
2
A. There
was an examination apparently
3 done at some point
which was reported back to
4 a detective briefing
at which I was present
5 and I believe that
was Wickman or Trujillo
6 that shared that
information.
7
Q. Who
conducted that examination?
8
A. I
don't know.
9
Q. Was it
an expert of some type?
10
A. I
don't know that there is such a
11 thing as an expert
examination and there is
12 no testing that I'm
aware of. I think
13 that's more common
sense observation.
14
Q. Did
you ever find the roll of
15 duct tape because the
duct tape was torn on
16 both ends, wasn't it?
17
A. We
never found the roll of duct
18 tape to source to the
duct tape that was
19 covering the victim's
mouth.
20 Q. And you didn't find
any prior
21 application of this
type of duct tape in the
22 house, did you?
23
A.
Similar, but I don't know that we
24 ever found a match.
25
Q.
Actually what you said was similar
360
1 was just one piece
that was found on a
2 painting, right, and
it was found not to be
3 in fact from the same --
4
A. Roll,
that's right.
5
Q. --
from the roll; is that right?
6
A. Right.
7
Q. Yeah. And did you ever find cord
8 in the house? One end of the cord was, as
9 I understand it, was
cut. The other end was
10 sealed for the
garrote; is that right?
11
A. You
know, I'm not going to say
12 that as I sit here
today. I would have to
13 review --
14
Q. Forget
that, don't worry about
15 that. Did you ever find any cord in the
16 house from which the
garrote or the rope that
17 tied her hands
together was from? Did you
18 ever find that?
19
A. No. As far as I know, the cord
20 used on the victim
was never sourced to
21 anything in the
house.
22
MR. DIAMOND: If this is a
good
23 point, before you
change subjects?
24
MR. WOOD: Let me see how
much
25 time I've got. Let me see.
361
1
MR. RAWLS: You have
something
2 about one ten left.
3
MR. WOOD: Give me about two
4 minutes, let me just
run through a couple
5 other things real
quick.
6
MR. DIAMOND: You have an
hour.
7
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) There was some
8 paint --
9
MR. DIAMOND: There's one
hour
10 left.
11
MR. WOOD: I do hope you'll
give
12 me some consideration
on a little extension
13 if we can finish up
and I don't have to take
14 it up with the court.
15
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) The garrote was
16 made out of a paint brush that was
believed
17 to be a paint brush
in a paint tray down in
18 the basement, right?
19
A. That's
my understanding.
20
Q. And
there was the tip end with
21 the brush found in
the paint tray, right?
22
A. No,
it's my understanding the
23 brush end --
24
Q. The
brush end was found, the tip
25 end was broken off
and never found, right?
362
1
A. Yeah,
it's my understanding that
2 the handled shaft was
fashioned into the
3 garrote handle. And Lou Smit told me that
4 there was a missing
piece that has been
5 unaccounted for.
6
Q. Did
you ever find any evidence to
7 dispute what Mr. Smit
told you in that
8 regard?
9
A. No.
10
Q. You've
already told me there were
11 the missing pages
from the pad, right?
12
A. If
we're talking about pages 17
13 through 25, if memory
serves, yes, those were
14 unaccounted for.
15
Q. And
there was some bleed-through
16 on what has been
referred to as the practice
17 ransom note, right?
18
A.
Correct.
19 Q. Was there any bleed through on
20 what -- on the ransom
note itself?
21
A. Well,
17 through 25 missing, 26
22 with bleed-through on
it presumably from 25.
23 And if memory serves,
27 started the ransom
24 note so you had some,
I think, bleed-through
25 from the practice
note.
363
1
Q. The
practice note consisted of
2 Mr. -- why don't you
tell me what was on the
3 ransom note, the
practice ransom note, as has
4 been described?
5
A. I
believe that said Mr. And Mrs.,
6 the what looked like
the down stroke of an R
7 which could have been
mistaken for an I.
8
Q. Did
any of the examiners compare
9 that handwriting to
the ransom note or was
10 that simply not
sufficient to draw any
11 conclusions about the
commonality of
12 authorship?
13
A. I
believe that the ink was
14 matched.
15
Q. The
what, the ink?
16
A. The
ink from the practice note to
17 the ransom note was
matched.
18
Q. In
what way?
19
A. The
same pen wrote the practice
20 note that wrote the
ransom note.
21
Q. There
were three pens. Did they
22 determine which of
the pens wrote the
23 practice note and the
ransom note?
24
A. The
same pen.
25
Q. And
that was a consistent or was
364
1 that a finding by
forensically of an absolute
2 match between pen and
ink?
3
A. It's
my understanding that the
4 Secret Service matched
the ink from practice
5 note to the ransom
note.
6
Q. Pens
were in plain view?
7
A. You're
talking pens plural. I'm
8 talking about the pen
that wrote --
9 Q. The pen, that was in
a -- it was
10 in plain view?
11
A. In a
cup in the kitchen is my
12 understanding.
13
Q. Pad
was in plain view, given
14 voluntarily by John
Ramsey to the police?
15
A. I
don't know about plain view, I
16 wasn't there. But it's my understanding that
17 he produced that from
a countertop area on
18 the first floor.
19
MR. WOOD: Why don't we take that
20 break now.
21
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time
is
22 4:47. We're going off the record.
23
(Recess taken from 4:47 p.m. to
24 4:57 p.m.)
25
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time
is
365
1 4:57. We're back on the record.
2
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, if you
3 would look at page
152 of your book. Next
4 to the last
paragraph, it ends "'I believe
5 she wrote it.'.
6
Ubowski had recently told one
7 detective "'I
believe she wrote it.'" Who
8 was --
9
A. Yeah,
may I read the paragraph?
10
Q. Yeah,
I want to find out who that
11 detective is.
12
A. I
believe that's Trujillo and
13 Wickman who made that statement,
specifically
14 Wickman, which John
Eller certainly also
15 heard.
16
Q.
Anybody else?
17
A. I
think this was Tom Koby. This
18 was that meeting I described in a vehicle at
19 the parking lot of
the shopping mall, Koby,
20 Eller, Wickman,
Trujillo, and I don't know
21 whether or not that's
on tape.
22
Q. But
isn't the bottom line that
23 Chet Ubowski made it
very clear that,
24 whatever his beliefs
were, he was not in a
25 position from his
standpoint to state under
366
1 oath that Patsy
Ramsey was the author within
2 any degree of
certainty; isn't that what he
3 told you, sir?
4
A. No,
the conduit was Wickman who
5 said something very
similar to that that he
6 couldn't get on the
stand and testify to it.
7
Q. And
that never changed while you
8 were there, did it,
that Ubowski would not
9 get on the stand and
testify to it, right?
10
A. Yeah,
as far as I know Ubowski
11 never took the stand
and testified to it.
12
Q. And it
was always your
13 understanding that he
said that he was not in
14 a
position to do so from an opinion
15 standpoint; isn't
that true?
16
A. To
take the stand?
17
Q. He
would not go under oath and
18 testify that Patsy
Ramsey within reasonable
19 certainty was the
author of the note?
20
A. Well,
the reasonable certainty I
21 recall I think it was
Mr. Ubowski speaking at
22 the VIP presentation
and I would like to see
23 a transcript of that because I thought --
24
Q. I
thought maybe --
25
A. -- his
answer or his remarks were
367
1 fairly strong
there. But no, he was
2 obviously not in a
position to take the stand
3 and make that
identification in court.
4
Q. Am I
right, maybe I went over
5 this and I apologize,
did Mr. Ubowski in his
6 report say
"There is evidence which indicates
7 that the ransom note
may have been written by
8 Patsy Ramsey but the
evidence falls short of
9 that necessary to
support a definite
10
conclusion." That's
Mr. Ubowski's opinion,
11 right?
12
A. That's
his formal report opinion.
13
Q. Did
you ever know that opinion to
14 change before August
of 1998 when you left?
15
A. To get
stronger or weaker?
16
Q. Yes.
17
A. No.
18
Q. Mr.
Speckin we've been over,
19 although do you
recall Mr. Speckin stating
20 that, When I compare the handwriting
habits
21 of Patsy Ramsey with
those presented in
22 the --
23
A. Mr.
Wood, bring me to where you
24 are. I'm lost, sir.
25 Q. I'm sorry, I'm in my
notes. I'm
368
1 not in the book.
2
A. Okay.
3
Q. Do you
recall Mr. Speckin finding
4 -- we talked about he found no evidence
that
5 Patsy Ramsey
disguised her handwriting
6 exemplars. I didn't want to go over this
7 part and I wanted to.
8
Mr. Speckin stated, When I compare
9 the handwriting
habits of Patsy Ramsey with
10 those contained in
the questioned ransom note,
11 there exists
agreement to the extent that
12 some of her
individual letter formations and
13 letter combinations
do appear in the ransom
14 note. When this agreement is weighed against
15 the number type and
consistency of the
16 differences present,
I am unable to identify
17 Patsy Ramsey as the author of the
questioned
18 ransom note with any
degree of certainty. I
19 am, however, unable
to eliminate her as the
20 author.
21
Does that sound correct in terms
22 of what Mr. Speckin's
formal report was?
23
A. If
that's what you're reading
24 from, that's
consistent with my recollection.
25 He did have other
comments and information as
369
1 well.
2
Q. Lloyd
Cunningham and Howard Ryle
3 were obviously
employed by the Ramsey family,
4 true?
5 A. That was my belief.
6
Q. You
knew that Lloyd Cunningham had
7 in fact been the CBI
examiner that had
8 certified Chet
Ubowski?
9
A. No,
but I do recall him saying he
10 had done some
training or had some capacity
11 in that effect with
Mr. Ubowski.
12
Q. How
about Howard Ryle, did you
13 know him to be
formerly with the CBI?
14
A. I
didn't know he was previously
15 with the CBI.
16
Q. Did?
17
A. Did
not.
18
Q. I'm
just trying -- I may be
19 confused about which
one was with the CBI or
20 taught Mr. Ubowski?
21
A. One
was with, I think, previously
22 the San Francisco PD
and you may be correct;
23 the other one may
have been with CBI.
24
Q. Did
you all conclude that there
25 were references in
the ransom note from Dirty
370
1 Harry, Speed, the
movie Ransom, the movie
2 Nick of Time and
Ruthless People?
3
A. That
wasn't my conclusion. I
4 think it was Lou Smit that brought that to
5 the attention of
several, and I don't know
6 that those were
verbatim quotes that matched
7 the ransom note.
8
Q. Were
you familiar -- well, was
9 that investigated by
the Boulder Police
10 Department in terms
of trying to find out
11 from movie rental
records whether the Ramseys
12 had
ever seen those movies?
13
A.
Unfortunately, one of the obstacles
14 we ran into with
movie rental records was
15 after the Thomas
Hill, Anita, I can't
16 remember her last name,
hearings. Movie
17 records are very,
very restricted and without
18 warrants or subpoenas
or something above and
19 beyond, we couldn't
just go to the video
20 store and check
rental history.
21 Q. Didn't the Ramseys
give you almost
22 100 releases to get
information?
23
A. I
believe after I left.
24
Q. But
nonetheless, you believe they
25 did that?
371
1
A. I have
heard, I think even you
2 say that after -- or
at a point in time
3 after which I left
the investigation, I was
4 of the impression that after Kane came on
5 board, they gave a
number of consent
6 releases.
7
Q. They
also provided a considerable
8 amount of historical
writings from Patsy
9 Ramsey, didn't they,
in addition to the five
10 exemplars?
11
A. I
don't know if those were -- if
12 those were seized by
crime scene search
13 warrant or if those
were surrendered.
14
Q. I
think we went over Mr. Dusak,
15 bear with me again,
the Secret Service
16 document examiner
found a lack of indications
17 and said that a study
and comparison of the
18 questioned and specimened writings submitted
19 has resulted in the
conclusion that there is
20 no evidence to
indicate that Patsy Ramsey
21 executed any of the
questioned material
22 appearing on the
ransom note. Is that
23 consistent with your
recollection of
24 Mr. Dusak's
conclusion?
25
A. If
you're reading verbatim, I
372
1 won't --
2
Q. I'm
asking you if it's consistent
3 with your
recollection. I'm not representing
4 anything other than
my notes here on it.
5
A. Yes,
but he said many other
6 things, too.
7
Q. But
that portion is certainly
8 consistent with your
recollection, true?
9
A. As I
sit here today, yes.
10
Q. Howard
Ryle put his opinion,
11 another Ramsey expert
who was, I believe, the
12 former CBI document
examiner, but regardless
13 of whether I'm right
about that or not,
14 Mr. Ryle put his
opinion at between probably
15 not and elimination
of Patsy Ramsey as author
16 of the ransom note,
further stating that he
17 believes that the
writer could be identified
18 if historical writing
was found. Is that
19 consistent with your recollection of
20 Mr. Ryle's opinions?
21
A. You
know what, I don't know that
22 the Ramsey, attorneys
or the Ramseys -- or at
23 least I never saw Mr.
Ryle's report.
24 Q. You weren't part of
the
25 presentation that Mr.
Ryle and Mr. Cunningham
373
1 made for Michael Kane
and the DAs?
2
A. I was
present at a presentation
3 they made. Michael Kane was not yet on the
4 case and I think this
was in May of '97.
5
Q. May of
'97 was the presentation
6 that Ryle and
Cunningham made, you did --
7
A. I did
observe that.
8
Q. What I
have read to you does that
9 seem, though, clearly
to be consistent with
10 your recollection
about what Mr. Ryle and
11 Mr. Cunningham
concluded?
12
A. One or
the other sounds accurate.
13
Q. I want
to show you and get the
14 benefit of my
elaborate markings.
15
MR. WOOD: Why don't we mark
this
16 as Defendants' 3.
17
(Exhibit-3 was marked.)
18
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) I don't have
19 copies, I
apologize. I'll give you a clean
20 copy of that, too, if
you don't mind instead
21 of putting my stuff
on it?
22
MR. DIAMOND: Do you have a
clean
23 copy?
24
MR. WOOD: No, that's the
only
25 one I've got. I told Sean I didn't want to
374
1 check bags so I
didn't bring a bunch of
2 copies.
3
(Pause.)
4
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Had you seen that
5 article from KCNC
from April 10, 2000, before
6 I just showed it to
you today?
7
A. No, as
I've said, I wasn't aware
8 that Mr. Ubowski was
retracting any statements
9 prior to you're
making me aware of that
10 today.
11
Q. If
this is correct Mr. Ubowski is
12 in fact stating on
April 10, 2000 that he
13 denies saying that
Patsy Ramsey wrote the
14 note and that he, the
claim that 24 of the
15 alphabet's 26 letters
looked like -- looked
16 as if they had been
written by Patsy is
17 denied as the lab
does not quantify like
18 that?
You have never heard those statements
19 made by the CBI
before I showed you this
20 KCNC report today?
21
A. No, as
I have said, no.
22
Q. I
forgot to ask you how many
23 lectures have you given consistent with
this
24 web page?
25
A. Very
few, maybe three or four.
375
1
Q. Do you
have any lined up in the
2 future?
3
A. I do.
4
Q. Could
you try and tell me where
5 the three or four
were, just the names of
6 the cities?
7
A. Indianapolis,
New Orleans, Snowmass,
8 Colorado.
9
Q. And
what is coming up?
10
A. Ohio. And I think there is one
11 after the first of
the year. Ohio might be
12 after the first of
the year. Minnesota later
13 this year.
14
Q. Dr.
Wecht says, Steve Thomas knows
15 so much about the
murder of JonBenet Ramsey
16 he doesn't mince
words.
17 Do you believe
that's an accurate
18 description of you?
19
A. That's
Dr. Wecht's description of
20 me.
21
Q. I'm
asking you if you think it's
22 accurate, that you don't
mince words?
23
A. It
depends on the context.
24
Q. Didn't
it bother you a little bit
25 about putting Don
Foster's name on this in
376
1 light of the letter
that we looked at today
2 that you've never
even seen the second and
3 third pages of --
4
A. No.
5
Q. -- Mr.
Thomas?
6 A. No.
7
Q. Do you
still think he's the best
8 linguistic expert in
the country?
9
A. He
still does work for law
10 enforcement and seems
to be highly regarded
11 and I certainly respect Dr. Foster.
12
Q. Did
you all send that letter to
13 the FBI and let them
know about what
14 Mr. Foster had said
to Patsy Ramsey?
15
A. What
letter is that?
16
Q. The
letter that I just showed you
17 today that you had
only seen the first page
18 of?
19
A. I did
not.
20
Q. Page
75 of your book. The second
21 paragraph "The
FBI would tell us that the
22 disposal of the body
of JonBenet had the
23 classic elements of a
staged crime, complete
24 with a Hollywoodized
ransom note." Was there
25 any specific member
of the FBI that you
377
1 attribute that
statement to?
2
A. The
meeting in I believe it was
3 August or September of
1997.
4
Q.
Quantico?
5
A. In
Quantico at a big, many, many
6 people in the room.
7
Q. If I
hear you throughout this
8 testimony and it
seems to me and from your
9 book, the FBI was
heavily involved in this
10 investigation from
early on; wouldn't you
11 agree?
12
A. They
were very supportive of us
13 and involved, yes.
14 Q. Yeah, I mean, they were heavily
15 involved for a case
that really was not a
16 federal jurisdiction
case, a murder?
17
A.
Arguably.
18
Q. I mean
when I was out there
19 saying, you know, I
didn't think the FBI is
20 objective because
they've been involved in
21 this case to a
significant amount, whether
22 you agree or not with
my objectivity
23 conclusion, I was
right about the fact that
24 the FBI had been
significantly involved in
25 the case, wasn't I?
378
1
A. For
the record I don't agree with
2 the objectivity
conclusion but, yeah, they
3 were significantly
involved in the case.
4
Q. It
seems like from what you're
5 telling me that they
were of the mind that
6 you were, that Patsy
Ramsey they thought was
7 involved in the death
of her daughter?
8
A. That
certainly seemed to be my
9 impression.
10
Q. So
whether that was an objective
11 decision by then I
certainly was right to
12 have some concerns
about whether or not they
13 had formed such a
conclusion before I
14 submitted John or
Patsy to the FBI
15 examination, wasn't
I?
16
A. Well,
twofold. One, I don't think
17 they would have -- I
don't think there was
18 anything
inappropriate with their polygraph
19 unit or that they
would have conspired in any
20 way with their
polygraphers.
21
Q. I also
comment to you the ruse
22 interview that was
attempted on Richard Jewell
23 by the FBI might be
enlightening about FBI
24 tactics, legal and
illegal. Do you agree
25 that you all
investigated the hell out of
379
1 Bill McReynolds?
2
A. Bill
McReynolds was, yes, very
3 scrutinized in this
investigation, not just by
4 us but I believe by
the DA's people as well.
5
Q. On
page 115. Right about here
6 down the second
paragraph, there was somebody
7 that was filing late
reports. Was that
8 Trujillo?
9
A. Let me
look real quick.
10
Q. A full
year had passed before he
11 completed his report
of the initial Atlanta
12 trip?
13
A. Yeah,
help me out with the
14 question.
15
Q. The
question is coming up.
16 "Trujillo and
Arndt still were not speaking,
17 and the sergeant who
reported the undisturbed
18 snow now filed an
amended report." Who was
19 that sergeant?
20
A. That
was Sergeant Reichenbach.
21
Q. And
"The first officer was having
22 difficulty in
recollecting certain events."
23 What officer was
that?
24
A. That
was officer French.
25
Q. And
"Then Arndt began amending her
380
1 reports, too";
is that true?
2
A. Yes.
3
Q. When
was the initial Atlanta trip?
4
A. I
believe that was January 1st
5 through 5th of 1997.
6
Q. Page
160, the last paragraph.
7 "Then the
defense attorneys were allowed
8 inside the Boulder
Police Department to
9 examine the actual
ligature and garrote that
10 killed
JonBenet." Have I read that
11 correctly?
12
MR. DIAMOND: Can I just --
I
13 just want to get the
context.
14
MR. WOOD: Last paragraph.
15
MR. DIAMOND: I see where it
is.
16 I just want to --
17
A. I
missed it; we're on 160 on the
18 bottom of the page?
19
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Bottom paragraph,
20 "Then the defense
attorneys were allowed
21 inside the Boulder
Police Department to
22 examine the actual
ligature and garrote that
23 killed
JonBenet." Have I read that
24 correctly?
25
A. Yes.
381
1
Q.
"I watched sick inside, and
2 Sergent Wickman
bellowed in protest 'You're
3 giving the fucking
murder weapon to the
4 suspects.'" Have I read that correctly?
5
A. Yes.
6
Q. Are
those statements true and
7 accurate?
8
A. Yes.
9
Q. 154,
right here, second blocked
10 out, second
paragraph, "Experts engaged by the
11 police concluded
there was no stun gun
12 involved at all, but
the DA's team never
13 relinquished their
claim that such weapon an
14 exotic weapon was used to subdue
JonBenet."
15
Have I read that correctly?
16
A. Yes.
17
Q. Who
were the experts engaged by
18 the police that
you're referring; would you
19 identify those for
me?
20
A. I know
at least one was Dr.
21 Werner Spitz, and
Detective Trujillo would be
22 able to identify
additional.
23
Q. Did
any of those -- any police
24 department
consultants discuss at either of
25 the presentations in
terms of what they
382
1 thought about stun
guns whether there was
2 consistency. For example, Dr. Doberson?
3
A. I'm
sorry, run it back by me,
4 Mr. Wood.
5
Q. Was
Dr. Deters -- the Larimer
6 County coroner
involved in the investigation
7 by the Boulder Police
Department?
8
A. No,
I'm not familiar with that
9 name.
10
Q. How
about Sue Kitchens of the CBI?
11
A. I am
familiar with her name, but
12 I do not know what
extent she may have been
13 involved in the
investigation.
14
Q. How
about Dr. Doberson?
15
A. I
believe Trujillo and Wickman
16 initially visited
Dobersen on behalf of the
17 police. But that was later followed up by
18 investigators Smit
and Ainsworth.
19
Q. Dr.
Doberson who I think you have
20 a great deal of
respect for?
21
A. I
don't know Dr. Doberson.
22
Q. Do you
recognize him, though, to
23 be respected in the
law enforcement community
24 in Colorado?
25
A. I have
no opinion. I don't know
383
1 anything about Dr.
Doberson.
2
Q. Do you
know that he has stated
3 within reasonable
medical certainty that the
4 marks on JonBenet's
face and back were caused
5 by a stun gun. Are you aware of that?
6
A. Well,
if you're telling me that's
7 true --
8
Q. I'm
just asking if you're aware of
9 it. You said --
10
A. I saw
that on --
11
Q. -- you
watched some of the stuff.
12 I'm just asking if
that's what he said there?
13
A. Right.
14
Q. Did
you watch the Tracy Mills
15 documentary, two?
16
A. The
second one, two?
17
Q. Yeah.
18
A. Two,
as in the number two?
19
Q. Yeah,
the second, there was one
20 back a couple years
ago, it's one that came
21 out in the last
several months, haven't
22 seen --
23
A. No, I
haven't seen that.
24
Q. So you
don't know what Dr.
25 Doberson said in
that, do you?
384
1
A. No.
2
Q. But he
wasn't employed by the
3 Boulder Police Department, among other things,
4 to look at the stun
gun issue, true?
5
A. I
don't know that he was employed
6 but they went to
him. Trujillo and Wickman
7 I know did.
8 Q. What did the Boulder
Police
9 Department conclude
caused these marks found
10 on JonBenet Ramsey's
back?
11
MR. DIAMOND: Do you want to
12 identify what you're
putting in front of him
13 just for --
14
MR. WOOD: I'm going to mark
it
15 and I'll do it by
copy. I don't want to
16 mark on this color
copy but this will be
17 Defendants' 4.
18
MR. DIAMOND: Will you
identify
19 what it is for the
record?
20
MR. WOOD: It's an autopsy
21 photograph of
JonBenet Ramsey.
22
MR. DIAMOND: Does it have a
23 number on it or
something?
24
MR. WOOD: I just put a
number on
25 it, a 4 just so I can
copy it and mark it
385
1 later. If you'll just hang on to it. I
2 don't want you to be
flipping through there.
3 There is one picture
I am going to ask him
4 about in a moment.
5
MR. DIAMOND: Yeah.
6
(Exhibit-4 and Exhibit-5 marked.)
7
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) What did the
8 Boulder Police
Department determine caused
9 those marks on
JonBenet Ramsey's back as
10 shown on Defendants'
Exhibit 4?
11
A. I
don't know that the Boulder
12 Police Department as
an entity formed a
13 consensus opinion,
but relying on the experts
14 in this case, and
Detective Trujillo
15 specifically who was
assigned to the stun gun
16 investigation told us
and I remember seeing
17 it that Werner Spitz
concluded, I believe,
18 what was believed to
be stun gun marks may
19 have been a patterned
object, if I recall
20 correctly, or I think
another explanation was
21 on her back lying on
some sort of object.
22
Q. That
was Dr. Spitz only?
23
A. Well,
Dr. Spitz completed a report
24 on that. I think Dr. Lee had some opinion
25 on it. Certainly Trujillo filed information
386
1 about that.
2
Q. I'm
going to show you defense
3 Exhibit Number 5,
which two photos, one is
4 obviously Number 4
and then 5 is a picture
5 of JonBenet's side of
her face. There were
6 two marks on her face. The marks on her
7 face and the marks on
her back were the same
8 distance apart,
right?
9
A. I
don't know that those were
10 identical. I have heard --
11
Q. Do you
deny that?
12
A. I have
heard Mr. Smit say that
13 they were
identical. I have heard Trujillo
14 say they're not.
15
Q. That
the marks were not --
16 shouldn't one just measure this, sir?
17
A.
Unfortunately you would have to, I
18 think, triangulate it
off of a photo because
19 they weren't
measured, my understanding, at
20 autopsy.
21
Q. Do you
choose to believe Dr. --
22 Mr. Smit or Mr.
Trujillo in terms of that
23 issue or do you just
not have a position one
24 way or the other in
terms of the distance
25 part of the two set matched pairs?
387
1
A. I
don't believe necessarily either
2 of them. But I have heard Mr. Smit and
3 Mr. Trujillo had
conflicting measurements on
4 that picture.
5
Q. But
one thing for sure, you
6 believe, I think you
would say and have said
7 before, that if a
stun gun was used on
8 JonBenet that that is significant evidence
9 that would point away
from a family member or
10 parent, right?
11
A. I
don't know where I have said
12 that.
13
Q. You
have never said that?
14
A. I
don't know where I have said
15 that, Mr. Wood.
16
Q. Do you
deny that?
17
A.
Refresh my memory. Where do
you
18 think I have said that?
19
Q. Do you
deny that or is that
20 accurate?
21
A. I
think, and for the record let
22 me just say, one
other expert that I know
23 the Boulder Police
Department consulted were I
24 think stun gun reps,
manufacturers or people
25 in the stun gun
industry.
388
1
Q. Do you
know their names?
2
A. I
don't. I think somebody from
3 Air Tazer.
4
Q. Were
there reports filed?
5
A. There
certainly should be. As far
6 as do I deny -- well,
let me put my answer
7 this way. I would agree to an extent that
8 it may be or would be
less likely that a
9 parent would be
involved in the stun gunning
10 of a child. Maybe I'm naive in that
11 thinking, as the FBI
agents told us they have
12 seen children
murdered in the most horrendous
13 of ways, but I won't
dispute you on that
14 point today.
15
Q. You
would tell me, too, that if
16 JonBenet Ramsey was
alive when she was
17 strangled and alive
when she was molested and
18 that there is
evidence of a struggle in her
19 neck area, that if
you assume those facts to
20 be true, that that
would be inconsistent with
21 staging of a crime,
correct?
22
A. I
don't agree with the premise.
23 I agree with the
expert Dr. Spitz' conclusion
24 on that.
25 Q. I'm asking you, though, sir.
389
1 You're talking about
staging the crime. If
2 JonBenet were
struggling to try to get the
3 garrote loose, that
certainly would be
4 inconsistent with the
parent staging a crime
5 thinking her child
was dead, true?
6
A. Mr.
Smit did present to the police
7 department that theory.
8
Q. But
I'm not asking about Mr. Smit
9 with all due respect.
10
A. I'm
trying to answer the question.
11
Q. I'm
asking you about the concept
12 itself. If the child is found to be
13 struggling to get at
the garrote, that would
14 be totally
inconsistent with the idea of
15 staging by a parent
who thought the child was
16 dead. I mean, that's just one and one
17 equals two, doesn't
it, sir?
18
A. Two
different concepts. I
19 disagree. I think that, as I've have said,
20 I think parents have
killed their children in
21 a variety of ways.
22
Q. I'm
talking about staging where
23 you think your child
is dead or your child
24 is dead and you're
trying to stage a crime
25 scene. After the fact that's staging, right,
390
1 to make it look like
something that it's not,
2 true?
3
A.
Staging, my understanding is just
4 that, recreating or
messing with a crime
5 scene to divert
attention, making it appear
6 something that it's
not.
7
Q. Then
if you've got a child that
8 is trying to pull at
the garrote, that would
9 not be consistent at
all with the parent
10 placing a garrote and
tightening it around
11 the child's neck to
make it appear that the
12 child was strangled
as part of staging a
13 crime, would it, sir,
can't you --
14
A. No.
15
Q. --
acknowledge that --
16
A. I'm
not going to go along with
17 that and agree to it.
18
Q. Why
not?
19 A. I just don't agree
with it.
20
Q. So
Patsy Ramsey theoretically had
21 JonBenet Ramsey there
pulling at this garrote
22 around her neck,
scratching at it and you
23 still believe that
the garrote would have
24 been placed there by
Patsy Ramsey to stage
25 the crime; is that
what your testimony is?
391
1
A. If
that's what you're telling me,
2 I won't dispute
that's what happened.
3
Q. Do you
believe that is what
4 happened?
5
A. No. I've offered a hypothesis
6 that I believe was
consistent with the
7 evidence as I knew
it, that possibly what
8 happened.
9
Q. Let me
ask you something about the
10 use of the word
hypothesis. Where did you
11 come up with that
word? You use it in
12 almost every
interview.
13
A. I
don't know, in school somewhere.
14
Q. As it
applies to your book?
15
A. No,
you asked me where I learned
16 the word hypothesis.
17
Q. Are
you prepared to state as a
18 fact, sir, that Patsy
Ramsey murdered her
19 daughter?
20
A. No,
I'm prepared --
21
Q. Thank
you.
22
A. -- to
say, as I have in the past,
23 that that's my
belief.
24
Q. Do you
know of any prosecutor who
25 is familiar with the
evidence that has
392
1 concluded that the
evidence shows beyond a
2 reasonable doubt that
Patsy Ramsey is guilty
3 of the homicide of
her daughter?
4
A. No,
because the prosecutors privy
5 to that evidence are
bound by grand jury
6 secrecy and none have
violated that with me.
7
Q. Did
you ever take this case to a
8 prosecutor? I know you all had the Dream
9 Team that was helping
the police department.
10 I want to know
whether you ever had a
11 prosecutor outside of
the seven that were
12 involved in this case
that at least
13 Mr. Hunter tells us
did not believe that
14 sufficient evidence
existed to charge and
15 prosecute Patsy
Ramsey. Did you ever take it
16 to a prosecutor and
present it to ask someone
17 else outside of
Boulder whether that
18 prosecutor believed
that this case had
19 evidence justifying
prosecution to prove guilt
20 beyond a reasonable
doubt; did you ever do
21 that?
22 A. Did we ever pack up
our or me
23 case file and take it
and do a presentation
24 for an outside
prosecutor to see if he
25 thought or would
prosecute this case? No,
393
1 not that I'm aware
of.
2
Q. Did
you ever do it at any time as
3 you sit here today?
4
A. Take
it to a prosecutor?
5
Q. Did
you take your information,
6 what you knew in all
those hundred of pages,
7 that hopefully you'll
be able to find now
8 that you'll go look
for them in response to
9 that subpoena, and
take that to an
10 experienced
prosecutor and say, give me your
11 opinion on whether
this justifies a
12 prosecution in terms
of whether this is
13 sufficient evidence
to prove guilt beyond a
14 reasonable doubt?
Did you ever do that?
15 That's my question.
16
A. No, I
have friends that are
17 prosecutors but I
never went and did a case
18 presentation of any
sort to try to elicit
19 their support in
moving forward with the
20 prosecution.
21
Q. All
right. Or to give you an
22 opinion on what the
evidence pro and con
23 would say to an
experienced prosecutor?
24
A. I
don't know what you're referring
25 to, Mr. Wood.
394
1
Q. You
would have to give them your
2 evidence and you
would have to give them the
3 intruder evidence and
you would have to say,
4 please, weigh this
and tell me because I
5 don't like Alex
Hunter and I don't believe
6 that Alex Hunter is
doing the right thing in
7 not filing charges or
getting an indictment
8 and tell me if you
think as an experienced
9 prosecutor the case
is here to bring charges;
10 did you ever do that?
11
A. No, I
never had some sort of case
12 presentation like
that, no.
13
Q. Why
did you not, when you had old
14 Barry Scheck, a nice
guy, Henry Lee, all
15 these VIPs there, why
did you not include the
16 intruder evidence in
the presentation to
17 objectively give
those individuals both sides
18 of the case?
19
A.
Because the Boulder Police
20 Department's position
was, as I understood it
21 and understand it,
the VIP presentation was
22 to show that there
was sufficient probable
23 cause to arrest Patsy
Ramsey and for the DA's
24 office to move it
forward through the use of
25 a grand jury with
that end in mind.
395
1
Q. Of an
indictment which is a
2 finding by a grand jury
of probable cause to
3 charge or arrest,
right?
4
A. Yes.
5
Q. You've
been in the business long
6 enough to know that
the grand jury can, as
7 they say, indict a ham
sandwich, right? It
8 doesn't take much
evidence to indict or
9 arrest, does it, sir?
10
A. My
understanding of probable cause
11 is facts and evidence
and circumstances that
12 are within the
knowledge of a police officer
13 that would lead a
reasonable person to
14 conclude that, A, a
crime was committed and
15 B, that a particular
individual was involved.
16
Sometimes, depending
on the case,
17 that can sometimes be
a great threshold.
18
Q. And
sometimes it can be a very
19 small threshold,
true?
20
A. A
lesser threshold.
21 Q. Were you ever told by anyone that
22 the reason the Ramsey
lawyers were allowed to
23 see the garrote and
to see the firsthand
24 original of the
ransom note is because both
25 items were getting
ready to be tested in a
396
1 fashion that would be
destructive and that
2 from a strategical
standpoint somewhere down
3 the road it might be
advantageous for the
4 defense lawyers not
to be able to claim foul
5 by saying that they
didn't have a chance to
6 observe these pieces
of evidence before they
7 were destroyed? Did you ever hear that
8 explanation given as
to why the Ramsey
9 lawyers were allowed
to look at those two
10 items?
11
A. No. But then again it was
12 difficult to get much
by way of explanation
13 as to why Mr.
Hofstrom was making a number
14 of deals with the
Ramsey attorneys.
15
Q.
Doesn't that make good sense
16 though, just
listening to it?
17 A. Well, I am familiar
as a police
18 officer that in
Colorado if destructive
19 testing is employed,
the defense has a right
20 to be present.
21
Q. You
indicated at page 297 of your
22 book consistent with the Boulder police, I
23 will tell you a press
release in June of '98
24 that you all had
collected 1,058 items of
25 evidence. Does that sound about right?
397
1
A. You
know, this was a Beckner --
2
Q. It's
at page 297 in your book.
3
A. I
know.
4
Q. You
adopted it as true, didn't
5 you?
6
A. If I
can answer the question.
7
Q. Yeah,
I'm sorry. I'm just trying
8 to move along.
9
A.
Beckner put together this as, I
10 think you're right,
as some sort of a press
11 release, but I don't
disagree with these
12 numbers.
13
Q. How
many of those 1,058 pieces of
14 evidence were shared
with the Ramseys or the
15 Ramsey lawyers?
16
A. I
don't know.
17
Q. You
consulted 500 -- you
18 interviewed 590
people. How many of those
19 interviews were given
to the Ramseys or the
20 Ramseys' lawyers?
21
A. I
don't know.
22
Q.
Consulted 64 outside experts.
How
23 many of those
experts' reports were given to
24 the Ramseys' lawyers
or the Ramseys --
25 A. Mr. Wood, you would
know much
398
1 better than I how
much --
2
Q. I've
got to tell you, Mr. Thomas,
3 I do know and I've
got about 14 pages and I
4 could be off by one
or two and yet everybody
5 keeps describing this
incredible amount of
6 evidence given to the
Ramseys and their
7 lawyers. I'm just trying to go figure out
8 where it is because
that's not what I've got
9 and that's not what
their lawyer has got. I
10 mean, I understand
they got to see the
11 garrote and I
understand they got to see the
12 first generation
ransom note and I didn't get
13 that.
14
But I got the few pages,
15 incomplete pages of
police reports that were
16 bargained off with
respect to the April '97
17 interview, right?
18
A.
(Deponent nods head.)
19
Q. And I
don't have any more reports.
20 I don't know of any
others that were given
21 to John and Patsy Ramsey
according to their
22 lawyers and I'm just
trying to figure out
23 what you were talking
about when you say you
24 were describing on
page 56 the incredible
25 amount of evidence
given to the Ramseys and
399
1 their lawyers?
2
A.
Courtesy of Pete Hofstrom and I
3 believe others in the
DA's office who did
4 this verbally so much was shared by Pete
5 Hofstrom's own
admission. If you're just
6 talking about hard
copy documents, I don't
7 know what they do or
you do or don't have.
8
Q. Take a
look at page 58 for me.
9 I don't think I have
asked you this. "Some
10 friends" -- the
very bottom of 58 on to 59.
11 "Some friends of
Patsy's were concerned about
12 how JonBenet was
being groomed for pageants
13 with the heavy
makeup, the elaborate costumes
14 and recent addition
of platinum-dyed hair.
15 It was creating a
'mega-JonBenet thing,' and
16 some friends had
planned to have a talk about
17 it with Patsy after
Christmas."
18
Who were the friends that were
19 concerned about how
JonBenet was being
20 groomed, identify
those for me?
21
A. On the
record this was per Barb
22 Fernie and I think it
included her, Priscilla
23 White and a third
party.
24
Q. Who
was the third party?
25
A. I
don't know.
400
1
Q. Were
they the same people that had
2 planned to have a
talk about it with Patsy
3 after Christmas?
4
A. That
was my understanding and,
5 again, that's on the
record with Barb Fernie.
6
Q. And
quote, end quote, mega-JonBenet
7 thing, whose phrase
was that?
8
A. Barb
Fernie.
9
Q. On
page 180 of your book you
10 describe some kind of
chilling experiences
11 that you had about a
cat being killed,
12 mutilated and thrown
on to your lawn and
13 garden hose sliced
and your wife's flower
14 garden shredded,
sergeant Whitson having shots
15 fired into his
bedroom, Linda Arndt having
16 blood on her front
door.
17
My question is you're not in any
18 way implying or intending
to imply that John
19 or Patsy Ramsey had
the slightest to do with
20 any of those events,
are you?
21
A. No,
not now nor did I do it in
22 the book.
23
Q. I just
wanted to make sure. I
24 didn't think you were
certainly. Who put the
25 screen saver on at
the Boulder Police
401
1 Department that said,
quote, The Ramseys are
2 the killers?
3
A. I
don't know who applied that to
4 the computer screen.
5
Q. Did
you think that was
6 professional?
7 A. Oh, sometimes police humor can be
8 less than
professional behind closed doors.
9
Q. Well,
did you suggest it might be
10 better to take that
off since you were in
11 the process of
investigation, there were a
12 number of suspects
beyond the Ramseys?
13
A. I did
not make that suggestion.
14
Q. How
long did it stay on the
15 computer?
16
A. I don't
know. I recall seeing it
17 a few times over the
course of a week or
18 two.
19
Q. Was it
up in 1997?
20
A. That's
when we were over at the
21 DA's war room.
22 Q. When was that, when
was the war
23 room?
24
A. Summer
of 1997.
25
Q. So
that's when it was up, summer
402
1 of '97, right?
2
A. Yes.
3
Q. Do you
know who was the policeman
4 or detective who had
a picture of Susan Smith
5 tacked to the wall in
the war room?
6 A. I don't know who
tacked that up
7 or who claimed
ownership of that.
8
Q. You
have been accused of trying to
9 go out and shop
experts to support the
10 conclusion that you
had already come up with
11 in May of 1997 that
Patsy was the killer.
12 Can you see why
someone would make that
13 suggestion, Mr.
Thomas --
14
MR. DIAMOND: May I have
that
15 read back, please.
16
MR. WOOD: I can read it.
17
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) You know you have,
18 I think -- maybe I
shouldn't make that
19 assumption. Are you aware that there has
20 been accusations against you that you had
21 early on made up your
mind before the
22 investigation was
complete and that you went
23 out and shopped
experts to try to find
24 somebody on handwriting,
somebody on sexual,
25 chronic sexual abuse,
to try to support the
403
1 conclusion that you
had already drawn? Are
2 you aware of
accusations made against you in
3 that light?
4
A. I know
that those accusations were
5 made against the
police team and they flew
6 back and forth with
the DA's team.
7 Q. From the timing standpoint, it
8 appears that one
could certainly make that as
9 a plausible argument
because you're out here,
10 a lead detective,
within the first few months
11 having decided that
Patsy is the killer. A
12 lot of the experts
have not been hired at
13 that point, true?
14
A. Again,
those are your words. I
15 think I have
characterized it as trying to
16 follow what I have called an abundance of
17 evidence leading in a
particular direction.
18
Q. But at
some point you concluded,
19 and the record will
speak very clearly about
20 what you said, you
say you followed that
21 evidence. But early in 1997, within the
22 first few months, you
had drawn your
23 conclusion, right?
24
A. That
it appeared based on the
25 evidence that she was
not only a good
404
1 suspect, but appeared
to be the offender.
2
Q. And
there were a number of experts
3 that at that point
had not even been hired
4 to review evidence;
isn't that true?
5
A. Yes.
6
Q. There
was a lot of evidence that
7 has never even been
collected or even
8 requested, true?
9
A. Such
as the clothing?
10
Q. The
clothes, that's a key piece of
11 evidence, isn't it,
sir?
12
A.
Correct. As I have said,
that
13 was a mistake.
14
Q. Yeah,
and it was one of many
15 mistakes, wasn't it?
16
A. I'm
not here today defending the
17 police department.
18
Q. I'm
not asking you to defend the
19 police department.
20
A. Yeah,
there were many mistakes.
21
Q. Was
Jeff Shapiro your confidential
22 informant on any
areas other than information
23 from Alex Hunter's
office?
24
A. He was
-- this kid was all over
25 the board and he --
405
1
Q. I
meant for you, though, please.
2
A. I'm
sorry?
3
Q. I'm
just asking, you described him
4 as my confidential
informant and I just want
5 to see any areas
other than to give you
6 information about Hunter
in his office that
7 he was a confidential
informant on for you?
8
A. Were
other detectives using him?
9
Q. No. Were you using him for
10 anything other than
to find out about what
11 was going on with
Alex Hunter?
12
A. Yeah. As I started to say this
13 kid was all over the
board and would bring
14 into the police
department everything from A
15 to Z. And most of it was nothing but
16 occasionally and I
can't think of anything
17 right now, he may
bring something in of
18 interest. But in particular, yes, it was --
19 I was most interested
in him for the
20 information he was
providing about Hunter and
21 the DA's office.
22
Q. At
page 232 of your book -- I
23 apologize, I
apparently have gotten the wrong
24 cite in my record. Oh, 236, I'm sorry, 236
25 where you say first
paragraph under the line
406
1 right here "With
our Dream Team, we tallied
2 the points supporting
probable cause and found
3 more than 50
items."
4
A. Yes,
I'm with you.
5
Q. When
was that tally made? Date
6 that for me.
7
A. Mr.
Wood, I can't date it
8 specifically but they
assisted us in our
9 preparation for the
VIP presentation and just
10 a quick reading of
this was maybe spring or
11 late spring of
'98. But no, it was before
12 that because later in
the paragraph it talks
13 about the Title-3,
which was way back before
14 Christmas '97. So this was, I would guess,
15 late '97, early to
spring of '98.
16 Q. Can I -- I don't have
the time
17 today, at least, to
ask you to go through
18 and list those 50
items. But can I be
19 reasonably confident
that if I set about
20 myself in your book
that I could find
21 reference to those 50
items in this book,
22 that you have
included those somewhere in
23 here?
24
A. No, I
can't commit to that because
25 of what was, I
remember there was an easel
407
1 that was used in
which everybody in the room
2 put out evidence,
information, that sort of
3 thing that went on to
this 50-plus point
4 probable cause board.
5
Q. So it
may have been all of your
6 points, you may have
--
7
A. It
certainly wasn't.
8
Q. You
may not agree with all of
9 them?
10
A. Right.
11
Q. The
245, 246, you talk about your
12 headlights sweeping
across JonBenet's grave
13 and you see the
marble headstone "JonBenet
14 Patricia Ramsey,
August 6th, 1990-December 25,
15 1996. It was a clue from nowhere."
16
And as I understand it, the clue
17 was that the dates on
the grave was a
18 statement by the
parents that JonBenet had
19 died before midnight,
right?
20
A. This
is gravesite surveillance
21 number two that we're
talking about, right?
22
Q. I'm
talking about -- I'm talking
23 about right here on
page 245 and then at the
24 top of 246 "It
was a clue from nowhere."
25 "For some reason
the parents were stating
408
1 that JonBenet had
died before midnight"?
2
A. Right.
3
MR. DIAMOND: Take as much
time
4 as you need to put
that in context.
5
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) If the parents had
6 placed the date of
December 26, 1996 on the
7 tombstone of their
daughter, would you have
8 concluded that it was
a clue from nowhere
9 because for some
reason the parents were
10
stating that JonBenet had died after midnight?
11
A. It was
a clue I think in either
12 event given the
information immediately
13 subsequent to, it was
a clue from nowhere, I
14 think -- no, it doesn't. But given the
15 questionable time of
death and how we were
16 trying to tie that at
times to the digestion
17 of this pineapple
certainly made this a clue.
18
Q. But it
would have been a clue of
19 the 26th if they had
chosen the 26th, right,
20 if they were saying
it was a clue to you as
21 a detective in a
homicide case that they're
22 stating she died
after midnight because they
23 put December 26th,
that's the way you would
24 have interpreted it,
right?
25
A. I
don't know because knowing what
409
1 I knew then is
different than what I know,
2 but standing in my
shoes in that cemetery on
3 this particular night
this was something
4 unknown to us at the
time because the
5 Ramseys, to my knowledge, had never
indicated
6 a date of death and
this thus became a clue
7 from nowhere.
8
Q. Have
you ever seen a tombstone
9 where it has
alternative dates of death, sir?
10
A. Never.
11
Q. Don't
you think John and Patsy
12 Ramsey had to make a
choice, and they chose
13 December 25th, that
potentially had nothing to
14 do with their trying
to make a statement
15 about when she died;
did you ever consider
16 that?
17
A.
Actually, I heard them make just
18 such a statement --
or make such a statement
19 saying -- he was
trying to make a statement
20 putting down December
25.
21
Q. To
remind people of what happened
22 in effect at
Christmas to his child?
23
A. That's
my understanding.
24
Q. But
not to state that she died
25 before midnight. As I understand it, the
410
1 only way under your
clue analysis as a
2 homicide detective that the Ramseys could
have
3 avoided being accused
one way or the other
4 would have been had
they put on there
5 December 25 or
December 26, 1996; is my logic
6 right?
7
A. No,
it's not right. As I just
8 explained knowing
what I knew then standing
9 there looking at it,
it appeared to me that
10 here was a clue that
she died on December
11 25.
12
MR. WOOD: Why don't we take
a
13 break. I think I'm down to about 15
14 minutes, and I would
like to kind of look
15 and see where I am
and what we might do to
16 wrap this thing up.
17
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time
is
18 5:45. We're going off the record.
19
(Recess taken from 5:45 p.m. to
20 5:55 p.m.)
21
MR. WOOD: I will represent
if
22 you give me 25
minutes, I will be done in
23 terms of my discovery
deposition of
24 Mr. Thomas in the
Wolf versus Ramsey case.
25 I can't speak to
Darnay, obviously, because
411
1 there was the issue,
as you recall, about the
2 testimonial
deposition that is still in the
3 process, indicated by
Judge Carnes to follow,
4 but I'm done.
5
In other words, I'm not going to
6 go bang on Carnes and
say, I need 15, 20, 30
7 more minutes.
8
(Discussion off the record between
9
deponent and Mr. Diamond.)
10
MR. WOOD: You wouldn't be
coming
11 back on my
deposition. You would be coming
12 back on Mr.
Hoffman's.
13
MR. DIAMOND: My understanding
of
14 the conference, and I
think the record
15 transcript will bear
this out, is that the
16 hour that Mr. Hoffman
asked for was his
17 direct testimony for
use at trial.
18 MR. WOOD: No, I disagree with
19 you. I think Judge Carnes was clear I would
20 have a discovery
deposition to be able to
21 cross-examine on a
testimonial deposition if
22 Mr. Hoffman chooses to
present him by
23 deposition at a trial
or live at trial.
24 Pretty clear. But be that as it may whether
25 I'm right or wrong --
412
1
MR. DIAMOND: I'm just
speaking to
2 whether Mr. Hoffman
is now complete. And my
3 view --
4
MR. WOOD: I don't know
whether
5 he intends to take a
testimonial deposition
6 or not, but there is
nothing that you and I
7 can agree to that
would prohibit him from
8 doing so, nor do I
think that I can sit here
9 and agree that I
wouldn't come back and take
10 a testimonial
deposition.
11
I'm trying to finish the discovery
12 deposition. I'm asking for, in effect, 15,
13 10 minutes or 18
minutes more than what I
14 think I'm entitled
to.
15
MR. DIAMOND: Are you
planning on
16 taking a testimonial
deposition?
17
MR. WOOD: I have no way to
say
18 that to you right
now. I don't think Darnay
19 could say that to you
right now. We're so
20 far away from even
knowing whether we'll ever
21 have a
testimony. This case could come up
22 on summary judgment,
for gosh sakes, that
23 could make us a year
or two away from even
24 deciding that point,
Chuck; isn't that fair?
25
MR. RAWLS: That's fair.
413
1
MR. DIAMOND: Let me consult for
2 a moment.
3
(Discussion off the record between
4 Mr. Diamond and the
deponent.)
5
MR. DIAMOND: Start.
6
MR. WOOD: Let's go back on.
7 Thank you. I'll get it right here on the
8 money. I'll mark it. You've got 25 minutes
9 of tape left?
10
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: I have 35
11 minutes of tape left.
12
MR. DIAMOND: You get that
on the
13 record?
14
MR. WOOD: We know we've
used it
15 up. Nobody can try to sneak more than that
16 extra ten in.
17
MR. DIAMOND: Just so the
record
18 is clear, we're
agreeing to your proposal.
19
MR. WOOD: Thank you very
much.
20 I appreciate it. If the opportunity should
21 ever present itself,
I would certainly
22 consider like
accommodation and consider more
23 if necessary.
24
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time
is
25 5:58. We're back on the video depo.
414
1
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Was the garrote
2 handle ever tested
for fingerprints?
3
A. I
believe so, yes.
4
Q. Do you
know what the findings
5 were?
6
A. I
believe that Detective Trujillo
7 told us that it
required the unwrapping of
8 the ligature cord and
the -- and it was
9 negative for any
latent prints.
10
Q. Was
there any partial palm print
11 found on the ransom
note?
12
A. Mr.
Wood, I talk about in the
13 book the prints that
were found on the tablet
14 and the note, but
beyond that, I don't have
15 any real evidence
beyond that. Early there
16 was believed to have
been a partial or bladed
17 palm which I believed
turned out to be
18 nothing.
19
Q. Do you
know whether there was any
20 effort to take that
what was believed to be
21 a partial palm and
compare it to the palm
22 print found on the
wine cellar door?
23 A. What I'm saying is I
don't know
24 that what was
initially believed to be a
25 partial print was
even a print.
415
1
Q. It's
not uncommon to handle a
2 piece of paper and
not leave fingerprints, is
3 it, sir?
4
A. I
don't know that.
5
Q. You
don't want me to go there.
6 The -- as I understand
it, there was a
7 beaver hair, what was
identified as a beaver
8 hair, found on the
duct tape?
9
A. FBI
lab identified a hair or fiber
10 from the adhesive
side of the duct tape as a
11 beaver hair.
12
Q. Were
you aware that Mr. Ainsworth,
13 Detective Ainsworth,
went through the Ramseys'
14 closets in June of
1997 and taped all the
15 closets for hairs and
that no beaver hair was
16 found?
17
A. Yes,
but that's not surprising.
18
Q. Were
there also brown and black
19 animal hairs found on
JonBenet Ramsey's hand
20 that had never been
sourced?
21
A. Brown
and black animal hairs on
22 her hand that had
never been sourced? This
23 is the first I've
heard of that.
24
Q. How
about brown cotton fibers that
25 were found on the
duct tape, the cord and
416
1 her body that were
consistent but no source
2 found? Is that accurate?
3 A. That were consistent
with what?
4
Q. They
were consistent with each
5 other, those fibers,
the brown cotton fibers
6 that were consistent
with fibers found on
7 duct tape, cords and
her body?
8
A. That's
beyond the scope of what I
9 know and just to
educate you, if you allow
10 me.
11
Q. Sure.
12
A.
Anything hair and fiber related,
13 Trujillo knows.
14
Q. I
think we've already talked about
15 it was a large number
of fibers that were
16 never sourced, right,
while you were there?
17
A. In the
house, yes.
18 Q. There was a pubic
hair, or what
19 was believed to be a
pubic hair, that may
20 have turned out to be
an ancillary hair, but
21 that hair has never
been sourced, as you know
22 it?
23
A. As far
as I know.
24
Q. The
pineapple, we know the autopsy
25 statement about the
findings. Were there any
417
1 tests performed
beyond the autopsy on those
2 contents?
3
A. Yes.
4
Q. Tell
me about that.
5
A. What I
know about that is
6 Detective Weinheimer
received that assignment
7 during the course of
the investigation,
8 employed the help of
I think a biological --
9 or a botanist or
somebody of some expertise
10 at the University of
Colorado, Boulder. The
11 name Dr. Bach jumps
out at me, as well as
12 others, and he
completed a series of reports
13 concerning the
pineapple and I think to save
14 time one of those
conclusions I think I put
15 in the book.
16
Q. About
the rinds being identical?
17
A. That
it was a fresh pineapple
18 consistent -- fresh
pineapple with a rind.
19
Q. Rind
being consistent -- oh, with
20 a rind but consistent
with pineapple found in
21 the house or in the
bowl?
22
A. Yeah,
and let me clarify that,
23 pineapple consistent
down to the rind with
24 pineapple found in
the bowl in the kitchen.
25
Q.
Consistent down to the rind.
It
418
1 seems to me pineapple
with rind is pineapple
2 with rind.
Was there something unique about
3 this particular rind?
4
A. I
think they were able to
5 determine -- well, in
fact, I know that
6 fellow Officer
Weinheimer disclosed to us that
7 they were able to
characterize it as a fresh
8 pineapple rather than
a canned pineapple.
9
Q. Okay.
10
A. I
think the investigation lent
11 itself as far as, and
Detective Weinheimer is
12 a capable
investigator, as far as contacting
13 Dole Pineapple in
Hawaii, et cetera.
14
Q. Do you
know whether there were any
15 other reports on the
pineapple, other than
16 the autopsy reports
and Dr. Bach's reports?
17
A. Yeah,
there was a series of
18 reports on
Weinheimer's investigation.
19
Q. Do you
know anybody else by name
20 that was involved in
that, other than the Dr.
21 Bach? I mean, Dole didn't give you any
22 report, did they?
23
A. No,
not that I'm aware of.
24 Sorry, the names
escape me but there are
25 other reports with
other planters, I guess,
419
1 pineapple, for lack
of a better term,
2 experts.
3
Q. Any of
those reports, anybody come
4 up with something
that was inconclusive in
5 terms of findings?
6
A. I'm
sorry, I don't recall the
7 content of the
reports.
8
Q. At
Quantico, was there one FBI
9 agent that said at
the end of discussion that
10 the Boulder police
should keep an open mind
11 on the case because
it could be a sex
12 offender?
13
A. Yes.
14
Q. Who
was that agent?
15
A. I
believe that was Ken Lanning.
16
Q. Did
you all ever have a dump
17 placed on the Ramsey
phone?
18
A. Like a
trap and trace or a wire
19 tap?
20
Q. An LUD
or an Amadump, where you
21 actually go in and
get the outgoing calls and
22 the incoming calls?
23
A. What
that sounds, in the jargon
24 I'm familiar with, Mr. Wood, is in
Colorado
25 we would call that
like a trap and trace.
420
1 But I think it's
different because you have
2 to be up on the trap
and trace to record
3 incoming/outgoing,
also known as a pen
4 register. But a dump, whereas anything prior
5 -- I'm not explaining
this well.
6
Q. Let me
see if I can help. Was
7 there a mechanism in
Boulder that would allow
8 you to go to the
phone company and say I
9 want you to go back
and tell me today on the
10 26th of December all
outgoing and ingoing
11 calls to the Ramsey
number for, say, the last
12 two or three days?
13
A. No.
14
Q. You
had to do it forward, not
15 backward?
16
A. Right, I'm not familiar with any
17 -- the phone company
here having any
18 capability to do
that.
19
Q. Do you
know for a fact that they
20 could not?
21
A. With
the exception, and I don't
22 know how detailed you
want to get into this,
23 but certainly toll
calls, toll calls you can
24 certainly go back and
retrieve.
25
Q.
Long-distance toll calls?
421
1
A. Yeah.
2
Q. Did
you all do that with the
3 Ramsey records?
4
A. I
think so.
5
Q. There has been a lot of
debate
6 about whether or not
John Ramsey or Patsy
7 Ramsey or some of the
Ramsey family before
8 the murder of
JonBenet owned the book Mind
9 Hunter by John
Douglas. Have you ever seen
10 a photograph of that
from a crime scene photo
11 in their house?
12
A. No,
but Tom Wickman swears up and
13 down it was in the
parents' bedroom.
14
Q. Does
anyone else, besides Tom
15 Wickman, swear that
up and down?
16
A. No,
but Tom Wickman has told that
17 to several people.
18
Q. Where
in the bedroom?
19
A. I was
always under the impression
20 as we recollect it
now on one of the two
21 night stands.
22
Q. By
John's bed or by Patsy's?
23
A. I'm
sorry, it's one or the other,
24 I thought. Maybe I -- no, maybe I
25 referenced it in the
book, maybe I didn't.
422
1 All I can tell you
right now is on one of
2 the night stands.
3
Q. Did
you keep a -- but Wickman is
4 the only person that
says that, right?
5
A. As far
as crime scene people that
6 were in the house.
7
Q. Or anybody.
8
A. Yeah,
Wickman is the source of
9 Mind Hunter by
Douglas.
10
Q. Anyone
else, besides Wickman, is
11 all I'm trying to
find out?
12
A. Not
that I'm aware of.
13
Q. Did
you keep a Frank Coffman
14 article called --
from the column Clues
15 Abound folded up in
your badge wallet at any
16 point in time?
17
A. If
we're talking about Frank
18 Coffman -- no, I
don't I recall the article
19 if we're talking
about the same article,
20 which I had cut out,
which I had at my desk
21 at the Boulder Police
Department.
22
Q. Did
you meet with Frank Coffman
23 and Jeff Shapiro one
day and reach into your
24 badge wallet and
unfold the article and show
25 it to Frank and Jeff
and say basically, guys,
423
1 you're right about
where I'm coming from,
2 words to that effect?
3
A. No. Again, I was very careful
4 with Shapiro and
didn't know Coffman, but I
5 do acknowledge of
being in possession of that
6 article. If I had it in my wallet, I don't
7 know.
8
Q. You
have told me about what you
9 have described and
we'll leave it to your
10 description on the
record, your feelings about
11 Alex Hunter. You're aware of, I think, Alex
12 Hunter's feelings of
you and descriptions of
13 you as somebody out for
blood money, a rogue
14 detective, we'll
leave it at that, and maybe
15 others. You're aware of those things being
16 said publicly by Mr.
Hunter about you?
17
A. Yes,
sir.
18 Q. When did the -- I mean, there is
19 a level of animosity
between the two of you
20 and that's probably
politely stated; wouldn't
21 you agree?
22
A. Yes,
sir.
23 Q. When did that
start? Did it
24 exist before the
Ramsey case?
25
A. I
didn't know Hunter before the
424
1 Ramsey case.
2 Q. When in the scale of
things do
3 you think you can say
to yourself that you
4 formulated opinions
that you hold about Alex
5 Hunter? And you don't have to answer for
6 him I'll ask him at
the appropriate time. I
7 want to know when you
felt like you were
8 sitting there
thinking I can't believe a word
9 this man speaks?
10
A. Mr.
Wood, that was a -- certainly
11 there was a culture
inside the police
12 department that
existed years or a couple of
13 decades before I even
arrived there in which
14 the DA's office and
the police department had
15 a terrible working relationship. But not
16 knowing Mr. Hunter
until our involvement on
17 this case together,
that was very incremental
18 in fashion or
incremental in stages, but by
19 the time I left the
police department, it was
20 certainly at its
height.
21
I was very dismayed and
22 disappointed and had
no love for Hunter after
23 some of these
revelations by Shapiro.
24 Q. You state in your
book there were
25 27 reasons for a
grand jury and it's at page
425
1 309. But my question is, were those 27
2 reasons
for a grand jury correlate to the 27
3 remaining tasks that
were referred to in that
4 June '98 press
release by the Boulder Police
5 Department?
6
A. Let me
look at 309 real quickly.
7 308, 309?
8
Q. It's
on 309 and I've got a copy
9 of that press release
where he says there
10 were 27 tasks
remaining. I'm just wondering
11 if that's the
correlation.
12
A. Oh, if
I understand you correctly,
13 did these 27 reasons
correspond with the 27
14 tasks left on the
to-do list?
15
Q. Yes.
16
A. No.
17 Q. You do acknowledge
having said
18 that the idea of
Patsy Ramsey going
19 downstairs and
putting a garrote around
20 JonBenet's neck is a
hard leap to make, your
21 words on --
22 A. Yes, a lot of people,
as I said,
23 myself included, but
maybe in a naive way but
24 after learning what
the FBI taught us about
25 child homicide, as I
said, they've seen
426
1 children destroyed
and killed in the most
2 grotesque and worst
manners imaginable.
3
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Careful,
your
4 mike is --
5
MR. WOOD: I'm making
noises.
6
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Burden of Proof
7 4/17/2000, Greta Van
Sustren said to Alex
8 Hunter, In the Ramsey
book Patsy and John
9 Ramsey write that
John has been excluded from
10 being the author of
the note and that Patsy
11 on a one to five
scale, five meaning
12 excluded, hit
4.5. Do you endorse those two
13 findings?
14
Hunter: Well, I think
that's
15 close, but I think
that this is a mumbo
16 jumbo area.
17
Do you ever remember hearing -- I
18 had mentioned this to
you earlier and I found
19 the transcript. Do you recall hearing that
20 Alex Hunter had
basically agreed with the 4.5
21 finding?
22
A. As I
said earlier, no, I didn't
23 see that or read that
transcript.
24
Q. There
has been some reference to
25 an FBI statistic that
50 percent of child
427
1 homicides are
committed by family members.
2 Do you recall that
statistic?
3
A. I
don't.
4
Q. Or
it's 54 percent, I think?
5
A. I
think the statistics that we had
6 at Quantico at that
big FBI meeting, they
7 gave us some
statistics. I may have them in
8 the book, but you
would have to lead me to
9 them.
10
Q. Who is
the pediatric expert that
11 thought that there
may have been some
12 corporal punishment
inflicted on JonBenet for
13 repeated bed wetting?
14
A. Dr.
Krugman.
15
Q. Steve
Thomas: What was
16 interesting is that
we found no history or
17 pathology or evidence
to indicate that John
18 Ramsey had any
untoward relationship or
19 discipline with his
children. Is that true?
20
A. I've
never thought that.
21
Q. I
found Patsy Ramsey to be a
22 complex person on
many levels but there had
23 been no reported
history of any abuse in the
24 house; is that true?
25
A. What
are you reading from,
428
1 Mr. Wood?
2
Q. A CNN
chat transcript, CNN April
3 14th, 2000, Author
Steve Thomas tells his
4 story.
5
A. Can
you reread for me the Patsy
6 Ramsey section?
7
Q. Be
glad to. I found Patsy Ramsey
8 to be a complex
person on many levels but
9 there had been no
reported history of any
10 abuse in the house.
11
Is that true?
12
A. Yeah,
we had no reported incidents
13 of any abuse in the
house.
14
Q. 331,
the second full paragraph, it
15 starts with
"Fleet and Priscilla White were
16 being hauled over the
coals because they
17 wanted to see their
previous statements,
18 pointing out that
they were being denied the
19 same privilege given
to the Ramseys"?
20
A. Yes.
21
Q.
"Chief Mark Beckman declared to
22 the Whites, who had
supported another
23 candidate for his new
job, were 'morally
24 empty' and again
suggested putting Fleet White
25 in jail."
429
1
When did that occur?
2
A. That
was late spring, I believe,
3 of '98, certainly in
1998. But I recall
4 this.
5
Q. Do you
recall Mark Beckner ever
6 asking you if you
thought that Fleet White
7 could possibly be the
murderer?
8
A. Mr.
Wood, I think maybe even in
9 this same passage.
10
Q. I
think that's where it is, here
11 it is, I'm
sorry. "'For what?' I had
asked
12 Beckner
incredulously. Beckner later asked
me
13 if Fleet could
possibly be the murderer."
14
Have I read that correctly?
15
A. Yes.
16
Q. That
would have been a comment
17 made in 1998 by Chief
Beckner?
18
A. That's
correct.
19
Q. You
talk about in your book that
20 JonBenet was an
incredible little kid, right?
21
A. Are we
on the last page?
22
Q. I
think it's -- it's page 353 of
23 your hardback?
24
A. Right.
25
Q. You
talk about something that
430
1 sounds a little bit
like something I read in
2 Perfect Murder,
Perfect Town about the sun
3 and the rhythm of the
earth beneath her feet.
4 "She was an
incredible little girl who loved
5 to be tickled. Ms. America was the least
6 she could have
been." Am I reading that
7 correctly?
8
A. Yes.
9
Q. Do you
give her parents any credit
10 for that in terms of
bringing her up for
11 those six years?
12
A.
Certainly.
13
Q. Did
you know a Dr. Monteleone,
14 M-o-n-t-e-l-e-o-n-e?
15
A. As a
matter of fact, I think
16 that's the name I
could not recall that was
17 the pediatric expert
from St. Louis.
18
Q. Did he
ever indicate that he did
19 not believe that
parents would engage in the
20 type of staging that
was being argued existed
21 in the Ramsey case in
the absence of
22 pathology?
23
A. Well,
that certainly I think would
24 contradict what he
put in a report on
25 letterhead to the
Boulder Police Department.
431
1
Q. So you
recall that report. Was
2 that one of the
documents you copied?
3
A. I
don't know --
4
Q. Or
received?
5
A. -- if
that is, but I do recall
6 that report and in
that report I think the
7 outstanding mention
was that he was of the
8 opinion that she had
sustained prior vaginal
9 trauma prior to
December 26 or 25.
10
Q. There
was a pocket knife found on
11 the basement counter?
12
A. Which I
learned later, right.
13
Q. And
was that ever sourced, to your
14 knowledge?
15
A. No. My recollection of that is
16 terribly vague
because I don't know when we
17 talked about those
thousand-plus pieces of
18 evidence collected,
those were potential
19 pieces of evidence, I
think that the pocket
20 knife may have been
collected, but I don't
21 know. There was the suggestion that I
22 overheard that that
belonged to Burke.
23
Q. Was
that ever sourced to Burke?
24
A. Not
prior to me leaving.
25
Q. In the
Ann Bardach article, I'm
432
1 sorry, now I can't
find it. Here we go.
2 It came out of the
October '97 Vanity Fair.
3 There is a reference
to the number 74 in
4 terms of individuals who had had their
5 handwriting
analyzed. Again I apologize, I'll
6 lean over a
minute. Right here, Out of the
7 74 names submitted
for testing Patsy's
8 handwriting was the
only one that set off
9 alarm bells, end
quote. Do you see that?
10
A. I do.
11
Q. Was
that your statement to her?
12
A. That
may have been. I know that
13 she talked to other police officers.
14
Q. Does
that mean were those the 74
15 that maybe now is
referenced 73?
16
A.
Possibly.
17
Q. So
that the 73 handwriting
18 analyses that you refer to in your book were
19 by virtue of the date
of this completed
20 sometime by September
of 1997?
21
A. Are
those one and the same?
22
Q. Yeah.
23 A. They may be.
24
Q. Do you
believe there have been 74
25 handwriting analyses
done before you have made
433
1 that statement to Ann
Bardach?
2
A. Well,
I'm not acknowledging that
3 it was me
necessarily, but if that was me
4 that would --
certainly I would have said it
5 holding that belief.
6 Q. The most sensitive
and critical
7 police and detective
reports as well as
8 reproductions of both
the ransom note and the
9 practice note found
the same day had been
10 given to the Ramseys,
the Ramseys' best
11 defense attorneys are
right and sat in
12 Hunter's office, he
mumbled bitterly.
13
Is that something you believe you
14 said?
15
A. I
don't know if that was Arndt or
16 me or who that
was. I don't disagree with
17 the sentiment.
18
Q. One
day in early July I was
19 contacted by a source
with firsthand knowledge
20 of the
investigation. I arranged to meet
21 with him in a parking
lot outside Boulder
22 Edgy, and fearfully
he said he was speaking
23 to me only as a last
resort. He said that
24 a flow of privileged
confidential information
25 critical to a case
against the Ramseys had
434
1 been leaked from the
DA's office to the
2 Ramseys' lawyers with
the efficiency of a
3 seed.
4
Is that you?
5
A. It
could be.
6
Q. If the
Ramseys had been some poor
7 Mexican couple, they
would have been in their
8 face for a week, got
a confession out of
9 them and filed first
degree murder charges
10 against them within
days, quote unquote.
11
Does that sound like something you
12 may have told her?
13
A. I
don't know if I made that
14 statement. A statement that sounds similar
15 to what I have said
in the past is had this
16 been an indigent or
minority couple I think
17 we would have handled
this case entirely
18 different.
19
Q. She
said -- she prefaced that by
20 saying, It's cold
outside and I suggest that
21 we find a late night
coffee shop in the car.
22 I can see the depth
of this man's agitation.
23 Quote, I have never
seen politics and
24 preferential
treatment play such a major role
25 in a case. He says that had the Ramseys
435
1 been some poor
Mexican couple.
2
That's you, isn't it?
3
A.
Typically -- I met her in the
4 summer of '97 and
typically it's not cold
5 outside in the summer
in Colorado.
6
Q. It had
to be with somebody because
7 that's when she was
here?
8
A. Right,
it's the summertime. It
9 could be.
10
Q. I'm
down to two minutes. And if
11 I can take a
one-minute break to make sure
12 that Mr. Rawls wants
me to spend my last two
13 minutes covering any
last one or two
14 questions, I would
appreciate it.
15
MR. DIAMOND: Okay.
16
MR. WOOD: I also need to go
to
17 the restroom. I held back on the --
18
MR. DIAMOND: I need to be
19 downstairs at 6:30.
20
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time
is
21 6:22. We're off the record.
22
(Recess taken from 6:22 p.m. to
23 6:23 p.m.)
24
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time
is
25 6:23. We're going on the record.
436
1
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, in
2 terms of the search
of the Ramseys' hard
3 drive and their
computer, was anything found
4 that was viewed as
suspicious or incriminating
5 in August?
6
A. There
were, I think reams of
7 documents that came off that recovered
hard
8 drive, but I think as
far as, I don't know
9 if the search
included pornography, I think
10 it did, nothing like
that, but there was
11 other documents that
were later used for
12 Foster. But I --
13
Q. For
handwriting analysis, I'm
14 talking about beyond
use for analysis of
15 handwriting, anything
--
16
A. You
mean suspicious?
17
Q. Or
incriminating?
18
A. I
would have to flip back through
19 it.
20
Q.
Anything that jumps out at you as
21 we sit here today?
22 A. No.
23
Q. And
certainly there is never any
24 finding despite a
fairly extensive search that
25 in any way linked the
Ramseys to any type of
437
1 pornography; am I
right about that?
2
A. Not
that I'm aware of.
3
Q. There
is a reference to I would
4 lose it with my two
minutes ticking. Let me
5 ask you, while I'm
doing this to look at
6 page 408, and that's
probably going to be the
7 paperback. I'll let you take a look at my
8 copy of that.
9
If I can point you to it,
10 Mr. Thomas, right
here, I've got it written
11 down page 408, It
should be a lesson to
12 communities across
America --
13
MR. DIAMOND: Can you give
us
14 just a second?
15
MR. WOOD: Yeah.
16
MR. DIAMOND: Okay.
17
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) "It should be a
18 lesson to communities
across America not to
19 allow any politician
to become an emperor and
20 merely interpret the
law as he or she sees
21 fit."
22
Have I read that correctly?
23
A. Yes.
24
Q. Would
you also agree that
25 communities across America should not
allow
438
1 any police officer to
become an emperor and
2 merely interpret the
law as he or she sees
3 fit?
4
MR. DIAMOND: Objection.
5 Argumentative. You may answer.
6
A. In the
context, again, please, Mr.
7 Wood.
8
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) Yes, just as a
9 statement of
principle that communities across
10 America should not
allow any police officer
11 to become an emperor
and merely interpret the
12 law as he or she sees
fit, it would apply to
13 politicians and
police officers, wouldn't it?
14
A. Non
committal on that.
15
Q. You
don't have a position on the
16 difference between a
politician and police
17 officer in terms of
interpreting the law?
18
A. I'll
give it some thought.
19
Q. Okay. Last question, page 181,
20 the last two
questions and then I'm done.
21 Are you with me?
22
A. 181.
23
Q. 181,
you make reference to three
24 FBI agents, intruder
theory?
25
A. Help
me. Where on the page?
439
1
Q. I'm
looking myself. Oh, I'm
2 sorry, I'm looking at
the paperback. 161, I
3 apologize. Do you see where it starts "Three
4 FBI agents"?
5
A. Yes.
6
Q. What I
want to know is if you can
7 date that for
me? "'The case is not being
8 handled well,' said
the CASKU agents."
9
A.
Shortly before I believe the
10 Ramseys' April 30,
1997 interview.
11
Q. Can
you identify the three agents
12 for me?
13
A.
Supervisory special agent Bill
14 Hagmaier, special
agent Mike Morrow, and their
15 partner and the third
special agent, his name
16 just escapes me at
the moment.
17
Q. And
those three agents prior to
18 April 30, 1997 said
that the intruder theory
19 was absurd, Hofstrom
needs to act like a
20 prosecutor not a
public defender. Don't do
21 tomorrow's interview
and get a grand jury as
22 soon as possible,
right?
23
A. Yes.
24
Q. The
final question, page 204.
25
MR. DIAMOND: And this is
the
440
1 final question?
2
MR. WOOD: Yes, I appreciate
it
3 because I think I'm probably 30 seconds over.
4
MR. DIAMOND: That's all
right.
5
Q. (BY
MR. WOOD) "To unlock that
6 damned S.B.T.C.
acronym at the bottom of the
7 ransom note, I called
the U. S. Treasury
8 Department's
Financial Crimes Enforcement
9 Network. I talked to Linda Percy. 'I've
10 been waiting for this
call for six months.'"
11
Can you date that call for me,
12 please, sir?
13
A. I
believe, and I can't
14 definitively, but I
believe that was in the
15 summer of 1997.
16
Q. June,
July or August of '97, you
17 believe?
18
A. As we
sit here right now, yeah, I
19 recall that as being
the summer of 1997.
20
MR. WOOD: Thank you for the
21 accommodation on the
additional time, both to
22 Mr.
Thomas, thank you. Mr. Diamond,
thank
23 you. Mr. Smith, thank you. My portion of
24 the examination in
the Wolf versus Ramsey
25 case from a discovery
standpoint is complete.
441
1
MR. RAWLS: As is mine.
2
MR. DIAMOND: Before we
leave, I
3 believe it's
automatic under your
4 confidentiality order
for a period of ten
5 days after the --
6
MR. WOOD: After the
transcript.
7
MR. DIAMOND: That there's
an
8 automatic in position
of confidentiality. To
9 the extent I am wrong, we are designating
10 this as confidential
subject --
11
MR. WOOD: It is.
12
MR. DIAMOND: -- look,
review it.
13
MR. WOOD: Any deposition is
14 deemed confidential
if you sign on to a
15 protective
order. That's why I thought you
16 all were --
17
MR. DIAMOND: I don't know
that
18 we have to sign on to
a protective order to
19 do that, I --
20
MR. WOOD: I didn't go into
any
21 confidential
information as it turned out. I
22 tried to phrase it in
a way that avoided
23 that problem.
24
MR. DIAMOND: I appreciate
that.
25
MR. WOOD: I will treat
clearly
442
1 the statement about
his Social Security number
2 as confidential.
3
MR. DIAMOND: I think you
should
4 treat the entire
contents of this deposition
5 as confidential.
6
MR. RAWLS: I think it does
say
7 that for ten days
they have a right to
8 designate --
9
MR. DIAMOND: Ten days after
10 receipt.
11
MR. RAWLS: Receipt of the
12 transcript.
13
MR. WOOD: If they sign on
to the
14 provision of the
protective order. Whatever
15 the order says, we're
going to do justice by
16 the order because the
last person I want to
17 see is Julie Carnes
telling me I violated her
18 order. Life is too short.
19
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time
is
20 6:30. We're going off the record.
21
(WHEREUPON, the deposition recessed
22 at 6:30 p.m.)
23 .
24 .
25 .
443
1
INDEX TO EXHIBITS
2 Exhibit Description
3 1 9/20/01
policetraining.net the calendar
4
for law enforcement training
5 2 6/18/97
fax cover sheet from Don
6
Foster to Gordon Cooper, w/attachments
7 3 9/18/01
CBS.com New Ramsey Book to
8
Hit Stands
9 4 Photocopy
of autopsy photo of JonBenet
10
Ramsey
11 5 Photocopy
of autopsy photo of JonBenet
12
Ramsey
13
(Original exhibits retained by
14 Attorney Lin Wood.)
15 .
16 .
17 .
18 .
19 .
20 .
21 .
22 .
23 .
24 .
25 .
444
1
REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2 STATE OF COLORADO:
3 COUNTY OF
DENVER:
4
I, Kelly A. Mackereth, Certified
5 Realtime Reporter,
Certified Shorthand
6 Reporter, Registered
Professional Reporter and
7 Notary Public within
the state of Colorado,
8 do hereby certify
that previous to the
9 commencement of the
examination, the deponent
10 was duly sworn by me
to testify to the
11 truth.
12 I further
certify that this
13 deposition was taken
in shorthand by me at
14 the time and place
herein set forth and was
15 thereafter reduced to
typewritten form, and
16 that the foregoing
constitutes a true and
17 correct transcript.
18
I further certify that I am not
19 related to, employed
by, nor of counsel for
20 any of the parties or
attorneys herein, nor
21 otherwise interested
in the result of the
22 within action.
23
My commission expires 4/21/03.
24
_____________________________
25
Kelly A. Mackereth
445
1
CAPTION
2
The Deposition of Steven Thomas,
3 taken in the
matter, on the date, and at the
4 time and place
set out on the title page
5 hereof.
6
It was requested that the deposition
7 be taken by the
reporter and that same be
8 reduced to
typewritten form.
9 It
was agreed by and between counsel
10 and the parties
that the Deponent will read
11 and sign the
transcript of said deposition.
12 .
13 .
14 .
15 .
16 .
17 .
18 .
19 .
20 .
21 .
22 .
23 .
24 .
25 .
446
1
CERTIFICATE
2 STATE OF
:
3 COUNTY/CITY
OF
:
4
Before me, this day, personally
5 appeared,
Steven Thomas, who, being duly
6 sworn, states
that the foregoing transcript
7 of his/her
Deposition, taken in the matter,
8 on the date,
and at the time and place set
9 out on the title
page hereof, constitutes a
10 true and
accurate transcript of said
11 deposition.
12
13
Steven Thomas
14 .
15
SUBSCRIBED and SWORN to before me this
16
day of
, 2001 in the
17 jurisdiction
aforesaid.
18
19 My Commission
Expires Notary Public
20 .
21 .
22 .
23 .
24 .
25 .
447
1
DEPOSITION ERRATA SHEET
2 .
3 RE:
Alexander Gallo & Associates
4 File No.
1637
5 Case
Caption: Robert
Christian Wolf vs.
6
John Bennet Ramsey, et al
7 Deponent:
Steven Thomas
8 Deposition Date:
September 21, 2001
9 .
10 To the
Reporter:
11 I have read the
entire transcript of my
12 Deposition
taken in the captioned matter or
13 the same has
been read to me. I request
14 that the
following changes be entered upon
15 the record for
the reasons indicated. I
16 have signed my
name to the Errata Sheet and
17 the appropriate
Certificate and authorize you
18 to attach both to the original
transcript.
19 .
20 Page No./Line
No. Reason:
21
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22
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23
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24
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25
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448
1
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2
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3
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4 _________________________________________________
5
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6
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7
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8
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9
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10
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11
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12
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13
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14
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15
_________________________________________________
16
_________________________________________________
17
_________________________________________________
18
_________________________________________________
19 _________________________________________________
20
_________________________________________________
21 .
22
SIGNATURE:_______________________DATE:___________
23
Steven Thomas